Discard Negatives ??!!!

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faberryman

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In response to that 'scan and discard' story, I think...
  1. what if the sailor at Pearl Harbor took photos with his camera, got the film processed and printed, got the prints back and trashed the negatives...and then the prints got lost or ruined in a flood? The images would have been lost to historians.
  2. What if I took photos of Kamala Harris as VP visitng San Francisco, processed the film and had them scanned and threw away the negatives, and the harddrive that I stored the photos on could no longer function (because of head crash) and the DVD-RW with the scanned images degraded the reflective layer so that data was irretrievable...and she became the first female President of the US? The images would have been lost to historians.

Folks think they do not 'lose' digital data, not comprehending that it is hard to find a ST-506 controller for 1988 harddrive that will fit into a 2022 PC bus, so the data on that 1988 harddrive is now irretrievable.

I made photographs of a variety of politicians and anti-war figures in Washington D.C. toward the end of the Vietnam War. The negatives disappeared during one of my moves. Historians are not crying. The world has not ended.

There are a lot of photographs of Pearl Harbor. There are a lot of photos of Kamala Harris.

Why would a photographer save his scans on a 1988 hard drive? My first hard drive with a ST-506 controller was a 20MB full height Seagate. Yes, 20MB. That would not have held many scans.

Why are you scanning your film anyway? Make prints and put them in a safety deposit box if you are worried about posterity.
 
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wiltw

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Negatives need to be store with some care to endure. So many things can go wrong--my uncle was an avid amateur photographer, but not the best darkroom technician. Many of his negatives as well as his prints have not aged very well.

I can represent the fact that 'care' is not essential...I have color negs and B&W negs that I took during my teen years, stored in glassine envelopes (one glassine might hold entire roll) that were 'filed' into a cardboard box (like you might have gotten as a gift purchased at a department store). Last year I discovered and retrieved the box, that had sat in my mother's home, with no special conditions for storage there. All negatives can be scanned to great looking quality....two examples

A fashion show in a restaurant, Kodacolor-X neg c. 1964.
1964-2_zpstuaar9ky.jpg


'Drum Battle' at talent show, Tri-X neg, c. 1967.. Drummer on right was the drummer for the group The People who had 1968 hit I Love You
BellarmineTalentshow_2.jpg
 
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wiltw

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I made photographs of a variety of politicians and anti-war figures in Washington D.C. toward the end of the Vietnam War. The negatives disappeared during one of my moves. Historians are not crying. The world has not ended.

There are a lot of photographs of Pearl Harbor. There are a lot of photos of Kamala Harris.

Why would a photographer save his scans on a 1988 hard drive? My first hard drive with a ST-506 was a 20MB full height Seagate. Yes, 20MB. That would not have held many scans.

Why are you scanning you film anyway?

So if images are of such low value, why bother to shoot?! Why share any images?
Ansel wasted his time, too, apparently, just as the guy who photographed Elvis in his coffin...tons of photos of Elvis!

Just sayin'
 
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faberryman

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So if images are of such low value, why bother to shoot?! Why share any images?

I shoot because I enjoy doing so and it gives me a creative outlet. I generally don't share my images, except with family, friends, students, and workshop participants.
 
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wiltw

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I shoot because I enjoy doing so and it gives me a creative outlet. I generally don't share my images.

And for most of us, our photos are taken for enjoyment, sometimes for the enjoyment of the taking of the photo. Yes, majority of photos taken have zero value. But once in a while, a photo that we take assumes far greater value for any number of reasons, and the value is in eye of the beholder. Be it a historian, or a crime investigator, or an anthropolist, or simply a relative of a dead loved one.
And while we might value our own images, it may be hard to find a relative to assume the burden of keeping photos retrievable after our death, whether it is a shoe box or file cabinet or harddrive or DVD. Certainly photos in a shoebox are far more 'retrievable' than anything on digital media!
 

Pieter12

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In response to that 'scan and discard' story, I think...
  1. what if the sailor at Pearl Harbor took photos with his camera, got the film processed and printed, got the prints back and trashed the negatives...and then the prints got lost or ruined in a flood? The images would have been lost to historians.
  2. What if I took photos of Kamala Harris as VP visitng San Francisco, processed the film and had them scanned and threw away the negatives, and the harddrive that I stored the photos on could no longer function (because of head crash) and the DVD-RW with the scanned images degraded the reflective layer so that data was irretrievable...and she became the first female President of the US? The images would have been lost to historians.

Folks think they do not 'lose' digital data, not comprehending that it is hard to find a ST-506 controller for 1988 harddrive that will fit into a 2022 PC bus, so the data on that 1988 harddrive is now irretrievable.
It is nice to know that you consider your images of historical significance. I hope posterity appreciates you. And the thousands of people who photographed the same event.

1683236005808.png

From The New Yorker Magazine, May 8, 2023 issue.
 

wiltw

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It is nice to know that you consider your images of historical significance. I hope posterity appreciates you. And the thousands of people who photographed the same event.

View attachment 337715
From The New Yorker Magazine, May 8, 2023 issue.

Already solved!...they take pictures of THEMSELF to send to others!

Not all photos have any significance. A few do....but not if they cannot be handed off to someone who appreciates/wants it.

We already have many fewer photojournalists earning a living, that we are increasingly dependent upon photos by the common man to chronicle events of the world.
We often do not realize there is any significance to our photos, until someone else points it out. I shot a photo of many iceburgs that broke off a glacier in Chile 35 years ago, which amazed someone who was in the same location this year, with no iceburgs due to climate change.
 
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faberryman

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Already solved!...they take pictures of THEMSELF to send to others!

Not all photos have any significance. A few do....but not if they cannot be handed off to someone who appreciates it.

We already have many fewer photojournalists earning a living, that we are increasingly dependent upon photos by the common man to chronicle events of the world.
We often do not realize there is any significance to our photos, until someone else points it out. I shot a photo of many iceburgs that broke off a glacier in Chile 35 years ago, which amazed someone who was in the same location this year, with no iceburgs due to climate change.

Who was the "someone" who was amazed by your photos of a glacier in Chile 35 years ago? Are there any other photo of the glacier in Chile 35 years ago?

What arrangements have you made to "hand off" your photographs to someone who would appreciate them?
 

wiltw

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Why would a photographer save his scans on a 1988 hard drive? My first hard drive with a ST-506 controller was a 20MB full height Seagate. Yes, 20MB. That would not have held many scans.

Why are you scanning your film anyway? Make prints and put them in a safety deposit box if you are worried about posterity.

I mere used an obsolete harddrive to exemplify a general problem of retrieving data from it in future years. The same thing could readily occur to storage media of today with thousands of images, 30 years from now-- just like what happened to the ST-506 harddrive 30 years later.

I do not scan films routinely, but there are current threads about that exact topic, and doing it with a scanner or with a dSLR or mirrorless camera. Folks have a reason to get photos from old negatives, for which no prints are accessible. I do not question their needs!
 

wiltw

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Who was the "someone" who was amazed by your photos of a glacier in Chile 35 years ago? Are there any other photo of the glacier in Chile 35 years ago?

What arrangements have you made to "hand off" your photographs to someone who would appreciate them?

This is the photo...it has already been 'shared' with another member of this particular forum via its posting

I assume there are other photos of the same iceburgs taken 35 years ago, but finding them is problematic. Finding photos is easy
finding free floating iceburgs are a small minority of photos...when the photos were taken is a different puzzle.
 

Pieter12

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If that photo had been taken with a modern digital camera, it could include GPS coordinates--something of great use to those interested in the movement and disappearance of glaciers. Analogue photos need to be annotated by hand--not everyone is willing to take the time or care to do that. And if your photo had never been scanned and shared, it would not exist as far as the rest of the world is concerned.
 

wiltw

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If that photo had been taken with a modern digital camera, it could include GPS coordinates--something of great use to those interested in the movement and disappearance of glaciers. Analogue photos need to be annotated by hand--not everyone is willing to take the time or care to do that. And if your photo had never been scanned and shared, it would not exist as far as the rest of the world is concerned.

Relative to the forum topic of this thread...I'm not seeing relevance. perhaps I'm being slow.
 

tokam

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While I know a little Python, I am more fluent in PHP and wondered if the ChatGPT software could generate code to do what you are thinking of: generate an MD5 hash for a series of files and compare those to files in another source. Yes, it can. A bit more tweaking and copying from a backup source would be easy.

@VinceInMT . Thanks for that. I've not looked at ChatGPT yet. If the learning curve looks too steep I may carry on with Python as it's a relatively straightforward task. The open-source library support for Python is quite amazing.

Now it's off to youTube for a quick deep dive into ChatGpt, make a decision and, most importantly, back to more BW film photography.
 
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It is nice to know that you consider your images of historical significance. I hope posterity appreciates you. And the thousands of people who photographed the same event.

View attachment 337715
From The New Yorker Magazine, May 8, 2023 issue.

"...There is no end to the making of many books, and much study wearies the body."

Ecclesiastes 12:12
 

VinceInMT

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@VinceInMT . Thanks for that. I've not looked at ChatGPT yet. If the learning curve looks too steep I may carry on with Python as it's a relatively straightforward task. The open-source library support for Python is quite amazing.

Now it's off to youTube for a quick deep dive into ChatGpt, make a decision and, most importantly, back to more BW film photography.

Here’s what I asked it: “Write a program in Python that compares the MD5 of files to the MD5 of another set and files and when different copies the second file over the first.”

It might take some tweaking but here’s what it came up with and I like how it provides a narrative about what it did:

To accomplish this task, we can use the hashlib library in Python to calculate the MD5 hash of files and the shutil library to copy files.

Here's the Python code:

import hashlib
import shutil
import os

# Dictionary of MD5 hashes and file paths
md5_dict = {
"md5_hash_1": "path/to/file1",
"md5_hash_2": "path/to/file2",
# Add more MD5 hashes and file paths as needed
}

# Loop through the dictionary and compare the MD5 hashes
for md5_hash, file_path in md5_dict.items():
with open(file_path, "rb") as f:
file_contents = f.read()
file_md5 = hashlib.md5(file_contents).hexdigest()
if file_md5 != md5_hash:
# Copy the second file over the first file
shutil.copy("path/to/second/file", file_path)
print(f"File {file_path} updated with new MD5 hash {file_md5}")


In this code, we first define a dictionary md5_dict that contains the MD5 hashes and file paths of the files we want to compare. We then loop through this dictionary and calculate the MD5 hash of each file using the hashlib.md5() function. If the calculated MD5 hash does not match the expected hash in the dictionary, we use the shutil.copy() function to copy the second file over the first file.

Note that this code assumes that the second file has the same name and file extension as the first file, and that both files are in the same directory. If this is not the case, you may need to modify the shutil.copy() function accordingly. Also, please make sure to replace the file paths in the code with the actual file paths on your system.
 

Luckless

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I can represent the fact that 'care' is not essential...I have color negs and B&W negs that I took during my teen years, stored in glassine envelopes (one glassine might hold entire roll) that were 'filed' into a cardboard box (like you might have gotten as a gift purchased at a department store). Last year I discovered and retrieved the box, that had sat in my mother's home, with no special conditions for storage there. All negatives can be scanned to great looking quality....two examples

Well care is 'not essential' in digital either by those metrics. A few years ago I was helping a friend clear out the office of their small machine shop after a fire took out the majority of their file archive. Technically what took it out was the putting out of the fire, because apparently paper doesn't really like being blasted by firehoses... Who knew?

But we did manage to recover all of the most critical design data for the company off old floppy disks that had spent over two decades being used to balance or wedge random bits of furniture or equipment around the place...

Why rely on care and attention when pure dumb luck can be there to save the day?

I've thrown out an ammo box of 'liquid negatives' of a friend's family photos. Blind faith in the hard copy being forever is a dangerous game.

I've also helped many friends throw out boxes of old family photos when they were prepping to move across country and had no space to bring them, and no one else wanted them. If you want your photo legacy to survive after you're gone, make sure you've curated the hell out of it into easily managed chunks, and don't leave a disorganized 'box of trash' for someone to deal with.
 

wiltw

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Well care is 'not essential' in digital either by those metrics. A few years ago I was helping a friend clear out the office of their small machine shop after a fire took out the majority of their file archive. Technically what took it out was the putting out of the fire, because apparently paper doesn't really like being blasted by firehoses... Who knew?

But we did manage to recover all of the most critical design data for the company off old floppy disks that had spent over two decades being used to balance or wedge random bits of furniture or equipment around the place...

Why rely on care and attention when pure dumb luck can be there to save the day?

I've thrown out an ammo box of 'liquid negatives' of a friend's family photos. Blind faith in the hard copy being forever is a dangerous game.

I've also helped many friends throw out boxes of old family photos when they were prepping to move across country and had no space to bring them, and no one else wanted them. If you want your photo legacy to survive after you're gone, make sure you've curated the hell out of it into easily managed chunks, and don't leave a disorganized 'box of trash' for someone to deal with.

Most of us have heard about the special precautions needed to prevent fading of organic dyes in negative and printsover the decades ....not store in wood cabinets, but metal. etc. Some of us are not so lucky to live in places not subject to high humidity, mold growth.
I was just reporting one incidence (mine) in which zero precautions were taken. Degradation is not 'automatic'.
 

wiltw

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I've also helped many friends throw out boxes of old family photos when they were prepping to move across country and had no space to bring them, and no one else wanted them. If you want your photo legacy to survive after you're gone, make sure you've curated the hell out of it into easily managed chunks, and don't leave a disorganized 'box of trash' for someone to deal with.

Folks don't think that one day they could need to memorialize the lifetime of a loved one when death comes to visit.
 

faberryman

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Folks don't think that one day they could need to memorialize the lifetime of a loved one when death comes to visit.

I guess some people still display photos of the deceased at the viewing or funeral. If that is something you desire to do, you should have some photos set aside for that purpose. Are you all set in that department?

In that vein, how do you have your negatives and prints organized and preserved?
 
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Sirius Glass

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Folks don't think that one day they could need to memorialize the lifetime of a loved one when death comes to visit.

Maybe you would not, but some do.
 

wiltw

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I guess some people still display photos of the deceased at the viewing or funeral. If that is something you desire to do, you should have some photos set aside for that purpose. Are you all set in that department?

In that vein, how do you have your negatives and prints organized and preserved?
Sirius Glass said:
Maybe you would not, but some do.

I have a collection of photos and negs inherited from my mother, who is still among us. But no way I have attempted to catalog many decades of her life captured on film!
I have a collection of photos and negs of my own, and they are filed in a way in which I can see the kinds of photos that are on each roll of film, if that roll is simply not a collection of random days in a lifetime.
I have digital photos all sorted into folders each named appropriately.
I know my wife has a randomized box full of photos (and few negs) for photos she inherited from her parents...I helped one of the grandaughters scan and assemble a collection of photos of her grandparents, as photo memorials when each of them passed.
My uncle has a box full of photos, none sorted -- until I took the entire box and sorted them into categories, to more easily later attempt (by me) to select some photos that capture points in his life, when he eventually passes.
It seems to me the photo memorial is more the rule than the exception, judging from the funerals I have attended over the past 5 years, both family and friends services.

And you?
 
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faberryman

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I have a collection of photos and negs inherited from my mother, who is still among us. But no way I have attempted to catalog many decades of her life captured on film!
I have a collection of photos and negs of my own, and they are filed in a way in which I can see the kinds of photos that are on each roll of film, if that roll is simply not a collection of random days in a lifetime.
I have digital photos all sorted into folders each named appropriately.
I know my wife has a randomized box full of photos (and few negs) for photos she inherited from her parents...I helped one of the grandaughters scan and assemble a collection of photos of her grandparents, when each of them passed.

And you?

The photographs that I want to survive are printed, matted, and stored in labeled museum boxes.
 

wiltw

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The photographs that I want to survive are printed, matted, and stored in labeled museum boxes.

Wow, you take it far beyond the usual 'throw it in a box' approach that seems so common (before digital)! You have made life so very easy for your survivors...sounds like all they need to do is arrange them around the room for viewing.
 
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