Deficiencies in DIY C-41 Chemistry

[Wayne]

I have priced it out to $2.30/L for C-41 and $1.90/L for ECN-2. Of course it also means hundreds of dollars in equipment as well, even if you go the cheap route. At this point I have spent enough that I probably could have bought enough chemicals for a year of developing and saved myself the headache as well. So is it cheaper? Yes and no. And that's with the caveat that my C-41 is still not quite performing at the level I'd like. It outperforms the powder from cinestill in overall color balance but still lacks the punchiness in the reds and greens. That being said, I think home brewing is worth it if you are consistently developing ECN-2. It's cheaper, has less ingredients and I consistently get good results from the published EK recipe.

C-41 has proved more complicated, at least for me. My V4 (with the potassium iodide included this time) is certainly acceptable for use but creates a noticeably cooler tone when compared directly to the factory chems I have available. Still ironing that discrepancy out, although a cooler tone could be desirable depending on what you find to be your "ideal" image.

Other than an expensive pH meter that I chafe at and probably would not buy, I believe I have everything else that I need. So I don't think it would cost me hundreds, it would only cost me whatever I pay for a less expensive pH meter and calibration solutions, and the chemicals. I've never shot ECN and have no plans to. Since (what I consider) decent C-41 costs $30/liter, and only develops 8 rolls of 120 without reuse, and I don't reuse, anything under 10-15 bucks is quite attractive for DIY. $2.30 would be a dream! I could actually start shooting a lot again.

But it has to work as well as good commercial product, or it doesn't "make sense." Never tried Cinestill or any of the "off brands" because I don't trust them. Unless UNicolor is considered an "off brand."

Anyway I don't want to derail your thread and I hope you solve your issues, as that would be encouraging to me.

 

[koraks]

it seems like the savings over commercial products would be significant

Depends on where you source and what you source. I cannot privately make C41 developer meaningfully cheaper than the minilab Fuji C41 developer I've been using the past few years. So the 'not making sense' for me was also an economic issue. Indeed, as you said, there's the equipment, and if you factor in your time and the cost of film involved in testing/troubleshooting, things are even less attractive. The DIY route has always been a kind of Plan B for me, and it just never really promoted to plan A status...

Since (what I consider) decent C-41 costs $30/liter

Local supply varies massively across the planet, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't beat this price by a mile. Around here, 10l of Fuji C41 replenisher (which makes 12.5l of developer) costs something like €60. That's the smallest minilab quantity you can buy.
Kits of 500ml, 1000ml etc. are of course relatively speaking far more expensive. If you're cost sensitive, those kits aren't the best choice.

 

[Spektrum]

It was the low prices of Fuji C-41 chemicals that encouraged me to give up experimenting with my own C-41 developer.

In Poland, 10 liters of Fuji Hunt C-41 developer costs 177 PLN, and this price includes 23% VAT (we have one of the highest VAT rates in Europe). 177 PLN is equivalent to 41.60 EUR. I also had to buy a 1 liter starter for 90 PLN (21.20 EUR incl VAT), but this starter will probably be enough for about 66 liters of working solution. This chemical is manufactured in Belgium. Poland is many kilometers away, and I am sure, shipping the chemical isn't cheap. I don't understand why in the Netherlands, Belgium's direct neighbor, is so much more expensive. I understand that a Dutch seller has to make money, but the wholesaler where I bought it in Poland also makes money. And Polish sellers really do not spare their customers.

I don't want to irritate anyone here but the prices of Kodak films are also rather lower compared to e.g. MACODIRECT DE - a roll of KODAK GOLD 200/36 (expires 2027/04) costs 9.90 EUR (incl VAT). Recently they had a promotion for KODAK PRO IMAGE 100/36 films (expires 2025/12) and sold them for 6.12 EUR (incl VAT). I bought a whole bucket of these films.
I guess I should stop complaining about the price of color film here. I just keep worrying about how long these relatively lower prices will last.

 

[Wayne]

Depends on where you source and what you source. I cannot privately make C41 developer meaningfully cheaper than the minilab Fuji C41 developer I've been using the past few years. So the 'not making sense' for me was also an economic issue. Indeed, as you said, there's the equipment, and if you factor in your time and the cost of film involved in testing/troubleshooting, things are even less attractive. The DIY route has always been a kind of Plan B for me, and it just never really promoted to plan A status...

But did it give you the same high quality results, or was it just "adequate" after all your testing? Ah, ok, here's what you said: "results were just fine – I never did any very systematic comparisons with big-brand chemistry, but negatives and prints were by all means presentable and usable."

I'm just not sure if that is a 4.8 star endorsement or a 3 star endorsement. ;-)

Local supply varies massively across the planet, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't beat this price by a mile. Around here, 10l of Fuji C41 replenisher (which makes 12.5l of developer) costs something like €60. That's the smallest minilab quantity you can buy.
Kits of 500ml, 1000ml etc. are of course relatively speaking far more expensive. If you're cost sensitive, those kits aren't t

Economy of scale is only available to those who can afford it. It costs a lot more up front to buy in volume, and requires shooting more film too to avoid wasting it. When you are stuck buying small kits, its about $30 a liter. The Kodak 2.5 liter kit is slightly less, at $60, but all of it requires shipping costs too so its still $30/liter or more. So yeah, even 10 or 15 bucks a liter for DIY would be well worth it to me but only if the quality and consistency is there.

 

[koraks]

I don't understand why in the Netherlands, Belgium's direct neighbor, is so much more expensive.

I didn't shop around extensively for the very best price. I could probably get this for the same price you got it for. I took the price from a consumer-oriented retailer of analog photo stuff.

But did it give you the same high quality results, or was it just "adequate" after all your testing?

The Fuji chemistry is better. IDK how many stars that is.

It costs a lot more up front to buy in volume

Yeah, if you can't afford the $125 or so to start out, you're stuck.

Even easier than developing C41 is painting yourself into a corner. Just saying.

 

[Spektrum]

I didn't shop around extensively for the very best price. I could probably get this for the same price you got it for. I took the price from a consumer-oriented retailer of analog photo stuff.

Now I understand. I wrote about the wholesale price, and sales are only available to businesses. They won't sell this product to the average consumer. Besides, it's the cheapest price on the Polish market.

 

[koraks]

FYI, this is the source I quoted: https://fotofilmfabriek.nl/product-categorie/fotochemie/kleurenontwikkelaar/c-41-kleurenchemie/

Even easier than developing C41 is painting yourself into a corner. Just saying.

Btw @Wayne sorry if the above sounded a little terse, but your 'problem' seems like one that's also a matter of mentality. If you want to shoot color film, it's going to cost you, one way or another. Nobody can sweeten that deal, ultimately.

 

[Spektrum]

Other than an expensive pH meter that I chafe at and probably would not buy, I believe I have everything else that I need.

Unfortunately, an expensive pH meter is essential if you want to achieve decent results with DIY chemicals. Even the slightest difference in the pH of the developer solution can cause problems with contrast or color reproduction (especially red). This has been mentioned many times, probably even in this thread. You can buy a cheap pH meter, but it will likely break down quickly and could ruin a negative that could be very important to you. With C-41 developing, if something goes wrong during bleaching, you can bleach again. Similarly, you can use fresh fixer again to fix what was messed up by the wrong or expired chemicals. But you can't fix a badly developed film. I mean re-developing in the correct developer will not help. This will frustrate you and discourage you from further experiments.

 

[koraks]

I had forgotten about this experiment I did last year, but I remembered. Have a look at this:

The film is Kodak Ektar. Top two strips are developed in Fuji C41 chemistry, the same @originalwinslow showed in the box above. The bottom two strips are developed in DIY C41 developer, the formulation shown on my website but without the iodide. I did NOT measure or adjust the pH of the DIY developer, so it was likely off. The bottom strips are underdeveloped for sure compared to the Fuji-developed film. I have compensated for this in the digital inversion by simply lifting the curve - I did not touch the color balance. Another methodological issue is that the 'Fuji strips' were shot in a Canon T90 with an FD 50/1.8 while the 'DIY strips' were shot in a Canon EOS 30v with an EF50/1.8. There can be color differences due to differences in coatings of these lenses.

Here's the same thing without the lightness correction for the underdevelopment of the DIY strips:

Here's the raw scan:

If you look at the real world garden shots, there's an overall color difference on esp. the blue channel. Like I said, it could be the lens coatings, it could be the chemistry - I really don't know, but I assume it's mostly because of the chemistry and in particular I expect that the pH for the DIY mix ended up too low. What I don't see is a very dramatic difference in color balance (just in absolute density); it's quite subtle if you correct for the underdevelopment. I bet that if I had properly controlled the pH on the DIY chemistry, they would have come out pretty close. But I can't tell for sure.

If I hadn't done the comparison and would have just had the DIY-processed negs to work with, I likely never would have noticed anything particular about them. Those negatives will print just fine onto RA4 and they scan fine, too. Are they 100% the same as the Fuji-processed strips? Evidently not. The question is at what point the difference becomes a problem.

 

[Wayne]

FYI, this is the source I quoted: https://fotofilmfabriek.nl/product-categorie/fotochemie/kleurenontwikkelaar/c-41-kleurenchemie/



Btw @Wayne sorry if the above sounded a little terse, but your 'problem' seems like one that's also a matter of mentality. If you want to shoot color film, it's going to cost you, one way or another. Nobody can sweeten that deal, ultimately.

Yes it did sound that way, but I've come to expect it from Photrio which is why I haven't been here in years. Nice to see it coming from the mods now too.

 

[ags2mikon]

Ouch! That's going to leave a mark.

 

[Wayne]

Unfortunately, an expensive pH meter is essential if you want to achieve decent results with DIY chemicals. Even the slightest difference in the pH of the developer solution can cause problems with contrast or color reproduction (especially red). This has been mentioned many times, probably even in this thread. You can buy a cheap pH meter, but it will likely break down quickly and could ruin a negative that could be very important to you. With C-41 developing, if something goes wrong during bleaching, you can bleach again. Similarly, you can use fresh fixer again to fix what was messed up by the wrong or expired chemicals. But you can't fix a badly developed film. I mean re-developing in the correct developer will not help. This will frustrate you and discourage you from further experiments.

Pretty clear that a cheap pH meter CAN work, for a while, as long as you continue testing/calibrating it for drift which seems like a doable thing. But since the DIY won't give the same quality results as commercially available products I will pass on it. I'm interested in results, not experimenting, though I will follow others experiments.