Dating my Kodak 2D 8x10

Len Robertson · Aug 28, 2016

Richard - In post #70 you mention "He recently published a book on the early years of Edward Steichen when he set up an aerial photography division for the air corp during WW1." Is it possible for you to get information on obtaining a copy of this book? I did a search but if this book is from a small publisher it may not be easy to find.

Your mention of Steichen in WWII sent me searching for more information on his service. I found this lengthy paper on the subject. http://scholarworks.rit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5844&context=theses A long read that I haven't finished. I suspect there may not be much information on cameras used by Steichen's unit but haven't read far enough to know.

Len

Arklatexian · Aug 29, 2016

Richard Pipppin said:
The number came directly off the plate attached to the camera. It is an 8X10, not a 3X4, and I can accept the build date to be in 1940. If my memory serves me correctly, WW2 was still going on. Point is...would this be one of the camera's used by Steichen's crew during the war?

Does anyone, besides me, care that WW2 began in Europe in 2nd half of 1939 and the United States was brought into the conflict in 1941 as a result of the bombing of Pearl Harbor on Dec.7, 1941. I was ten years old at that time. I would imagine that Steichen and his Navy group probably was organized in early 1942 or not much earlier. That must be/have been one heck of a camera to have been made for that length of time, no matter under whose name.......Regards!

Richard Pippin · Aug 29, 2016

I'll get in touch with him and post a link for the book. Thanks all for your replies.

Len Robertson · Aug 29, 2016

oldtimermetoo - I considered including in my earlier post that the US didn't enter WW2 until declaring war on Japan on Dec. 8,1941 following the Dec. 7 Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Germany declared war on the US on Dec. 11, 1941. England and France had been at war with Germany since Sept. 3, 1939 after Germany's invasion of Poland on Sept. 1.

According to the paper in the link I posted Steichen was commissioned "Lt. Commander Edward Steichen" on Jan. 30, 1942 (page 46 of the PDF file. The text page numbers are slightly different.). The author doesn't give a specific date for formation of the Naval Aviation Photographic Unit that Steichen was to form, but presumably Steichen would have started immediately. Interestingly he had only six photographers working in the Unit until late 1944 (PDF page 50). Legendary camera repairman Mary Forscher was part of the Unit (page 51).

Page 59 of the PDF gives a brief description of cameras used by the Unit. "Steichen's men almost unanimously adopted the smaller, more maneuverable 2 1/4 - inch Rolleiflex." The author then mentions Steichen "...saw the 35mm camera as the format of the future, and encouraged the use of Kodak's 35mm Medalist camera...". Since the Medalist most of us are familiar with is 620 film size I don't know if that is the camera Steichen encouraged or he actually favored another model 35mm.

Given the limited size Steichen's until and their task of photographing Naval Aviation I suspect their use of view cameras was limited, not to say they never used 8X10s at all. The text mentions the archive of negatives and there may be information somewhere of sizes of negatives on file there.

If anyone clicks over to the link I posted and finds the 182 page PDF intimidating, be aware that the main text only goes to page 88 and is a very readable story. From page 109 on are examples of the Unit's work, mostly thumbnail photos but from page 151 on are larger photos.

Richard - That is wonderful if you can post information on the WWI Steichen book. I look forward to it.

Len

Terry Christian · Oct 18, 2016

Another serial number request, please, for a 2D I just acquired: 198277. Many thanks in advance.

shutterfinger · Oct 18, 2016

Terry Christian said:
Another serial number request, please, for a 2D I just acquired: 198277. Many thanks in advance.

1937

Roger Thoms · Mar 11, 2018

Is it possible to date a Century No. 2 studio camera, serial # 59624? Just picked this beauty up on Friday and am trying to find more info on it.

Roger

John Wiegerink · Mar 12, 2018

Len Robertson said:
oldtimermetoo - I considered including in my earlier post that the US didn't enter WW2 until declaring war on Japan on Dec. 8,1941 following the Dec. 7 Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Germany declared war on the US on Dec. 11, 1941. England and France had been at war with Germany since Sept. 3, 1939 after Germany's invasion of Poland on Sept. 1.

According to the paper in the link I posted Steichen was commissioned "Lt. Commander Edward Steichen" on Jan. 30, 1942 (page 46 of the PDF file. The text page numbers are slightly different.). The author doesn't give a specific date for formation of the Naval Aviation Photographic Unit that Steichen was to form, but presumably Steichen would have started immediately. Interestingly he had only six photographers working in the Unit until late 1944 (PDF page 50). Legendary camera repairman Mary Forscher was part of the Unit (page 51).

Page 59 of the PDF gives a brief description of cameras used by the Unit. "Steichen's men almost unanimously adopted the smaller, more maneuverable 2 1/4 - inch Rolleiflex." The author then mentions Steichen "...saw the 35mm camera as the format of the future, and encouraged the use of Kodak's 35mm Medalist camera...". Since the Medalist most of us are familiar with is 620 film size I don't know if that is the camera Steichen encouraged or he actually favored another model 35mm.

Given the limited size Steichen's until and their task of photographing Naval Aviation I suspect their use of view cameras was limited, not to say they never used 8X10s at all. The text mentions the archive of negatives and there may be information somewhere of sizes of negatives on file there.

If anyone clicks over to the link I posted and finds the 182 page PDF intimidating, be aware that the main text only goes to page 88 and is a very readable story. From page 109 on are examples of the Unit's work, mostly thumbnail photos but from page 151 on are larger photos.

Richard - That is wonderful if you can post information on the WWI Steichen book. I look forward to it.

Len

I had never read that particular page 59 PGF, but had read about Steichen's unit. The part about the use of "Kodak's 35mm Medalist" is bunk since the Medalist was not 35mm. Also, the Navy pretty much determined what they would use/repair, not Steichen. In order to be in Steichen's unit you had to be able to completely disassemble a Kodak Medalist and put it back together again. That rule was set down by Steichen himself, not the Navy. There are more stories, but I just wanted to set that one fact straight. JohnW

shutterfinger · Mar 12, 2018

Roger Thoms said:
Is it possible to date a Century No. 2 studio camera, serial # 59624

No unless you can find someone with a list of Century serial numbers. Graflex did not include any hint of dom until 1923 then it was only when the work order was listed.
Your camera's serial number falls into a large block of numbers that are not listed in the Graflex record.

williaty · Mar 15, 2018

Am I correct in concluding that my new 2D 8x10, serial number 312657, is from that just-pre-war block that isn't precisely recorded?

shutterfinger · Mar 15, 2018

williaty said:
Am I correct in concluding that my new 2D 8x10, serial number 312657, is from that just-pre-war block that isn't precisely recorded?

In a 2000+ group of numbers that the frantic employees failed to list in mid year 1942.

williaty · Mar 15, 2018

shutterfinger said:
In a 2000+ group of numbers that the frantic employees failed to list in mid year 1942.

Thank you.

Are you aware of any similar method to date a Semi-Centennial Stand #1a?

shutterfinger · Mar 15, 2018

williaty said:
Are you aware of any similar method to date a Semi-Centennial Stand #1a?

The stand is likely classified as an Accessory and accessories were not listed.

Roger Thoms · Mar 15, 2018

shutterfinger said:
No unless you can find someone with a list of Century serial numbers. Graflex did not include any hint of dom until 1923 then it was only when the work order was listed.
Your camera's serial number falls into a large block of numbers that are not listed in the Graflex record.

Thanks for the reply. Seems like the No. 2 is a early model. Sure can’t seem to find much info on it, haven’t been able to find it in any of the catalogs that are posted online.

Roger

1tacoshort · Jul 2, 2018

Jumping on the bandwagon, I've got an Eastman 2D 5x7 with a serial number of 344110. Was this built in 1945?

shutterfinger · Jul 2, 2018

1tacoshort said:
Was this built in 1945?

Yes.
Non listed group of numbers that fit between Dec. 1944 to mid Jan. 1945.

1tacoshort · Jul 2, 2018

Thanks, Shutterfinger!

Nodda Duma · Dec 16, 2018

Hey there,

Just picked up a 2D with Serial # 290532 below the ground glass on the rear standard. What year would this place its manufacture?

On the top plate is Serial # 41-9115.
Order # W-535-AC-19849.

shutterfinger · Dec 16, 2018

Nodda Duma said:
Serial # 290532 below the ground glass on the rear standard

This number falls in the middle of a large order of 4x5 Speed Graphics in 1940.

Nodda Duma said:
On the top plate is Serial # 41-9115.

Likely a U.S. Government agency number, no records available.
The factory serial number should be on the bottom of the rear standard.

Nodda Duma · Dec 17, 2018

Thank you!

Cheers,
Jason

Carson R Davis · Dec 23, 2018

Shutterfinger,
I have a 5x7 missing the front nameplate that I think is an Eastman View 2-D. Serial number on the back reads 284,291.
Included lightmeter manual reads copyright 1939, and film papers read copyright 1940.
Do you have any information on my SN?
The lens is a 7.5in f/4.5 ILEX Paragon Anastigmat Series A with a Univeral Shutter, serial number 39,198.
Thanks for the help!

shutterfinger · Dec 23, 2018

If its a Kodak #2 or #2D its serial number is in a group of 200 numbers not listed. Numbers either side of this group are early 1941.
I assume the manufacture of Kodak View cameras were farmed out to to another manufacturer as the volume of Speed Graphics had greatly increased due to the war. The camera model and serial numbers were not listed in this record and possibly some serial numbers duplicated by the licensed company. A Kodak #2 made in the 1940's was likely a Government agency camera.
The D stands for dark wood or finish.

Carson R Davis · Dec 23, 2018

Shutterfinger,
Thanks for all the information!
I've included a bunch of pictures at this link for reference. http://imgur.com/gallery/Gz4jiBW
It is indeed a dark wood, maybe mahogany? The camera and bellows are in remarkably good condition, and it came with a robust case and a Crown #2 tripod. There is also what I think is a portrait mount as well as an additional squeeze mount for the camera. I have a few guesses, but I'm curious if you know the intended use of the squeeze mount.
I'm also interested to know more about what government agencies would have used it. Finally, is there any way to tell if the bellows have been replaced?
Thanks again for the help!

shutterfinger · Dec 23, 2018

Its definitely a Eastman #2D. http://www.piercevaubel.com/cam/ekc.htm shows the 7x11 version as a 2D.
Check the catalogs linked there for more detailed information. I don't know about the squeeze mount, never heard of one before now.
I think all agencies, Army, Air Force, Navy, Land Management used then for geographical survey.
If the bellows are replacement they're close to original in color.

Carson R Davis · Dec 23, 2018

I may be mischaracterizing the mount. It slides onto the bottom of the rail system of the camera. A screw on the side squeezes it in place, and it provides an alternate tripod mounting location.
I also have two mystery black pieces of wood with notches of different depths on either sides, and two holes partially drilled into one face. I have no idea what they are. The notches don't fit into the camera rail system.
All three of these accessories are pictured in a group photo on the website you just sent me.
I've attached more pictures at this link: http://imgur.com/gallery/MLWgoZz

Dating my Kodak 2D 8x10

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