Companies Not Marketing Right

Discussion in 'Industry News' started by Hubigpielover, Oct 16, 2017.

  1. RattyMouse

    RattyMouse Member

    Messages:
    5,628
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Location:
    Ann Arbor, Mi
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Kodak failed again. It's largely known that Fuji's success in the USA was kicked off by its participation in the 1984 LA Olympics. Tremendous visibly was gained by Fujifilm using their blimp and they gained a foothold in the US that they never lost.
     
  2. vsyrek1945

    vsyrek1945 Subscriber

    Messages:
    138
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Location:
    Long Island,
    Shooter:
    35mm
    I was shooting Fujichrome regularly for 10 years or more by 1984, having tried it shortly after its early 1970s U. S. introduction. While Fuji's high-profile Olympics presence no doubt converted a good part of the pro shooters market segment, amateur enthusiasts like me were long since on board. The vibrant colors, especially when underexposed 1/3 EV, and sharpness at a competitive (lower) price made the decision easy.
     
  3. AgX

    AgX Member

    Messages:
    16,649
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    A "Fujifilm" blimb has been around here for years but the same time there were no traces of Instax cameras in the shops.
    The latter only changed over the last two or three years.

    Imagine there had been a blimb with "Instax Cameras".
     
  4. RPC

    RPC Member

    Messages:
    1,090
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    If you are blowing out highlights in a negative you are grossly overexposing. If seeing it only in prints, there is a problem elsewhere. In my experience it is much easier to blow highlights in digital than negative film. Slide film, on the other hand is similar to digital.
     
  5. RattyMouse

    RattyMouse Member

    Messages:
    5,628
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Location:
    Ann Arbor, Mi
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    The fact remains that Fujifilm's market share was distinctly second to Kodak's pre-1984 and took off like a rocket after the Olympics. Kodak once again missed the boat. Their hubris cost them virtually every chance they had to stay an American icon.
     
  6. AgX

    AgX Member

    Messages:
    16,649
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Before that Fuji pushed Agfa from that second position.
     
  7. saman13

    saman13 Subscriber

    Messages:
    357
    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Location:
    Sarasota, Florida
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    It was a little tongue in cheek.
     
  8. saman13

    saman13 Subscriber

    Messages:
    357
    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Location:
    Sarasota, Florida
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Missed this post the first time around, but +1. These are the exact same experiences I’ve had with film.

    With young people, it’s a novelty and it’s the tangibility of the medium that is very cool. But even with people like my parents and grandparents, it’s a novelty just the same because they haven’t picked up a film camera in 10-15 years. It’s like hearing your favorite song from high school again. A pleasant experience and kicks you back into “remember whens”.

    Slide film has even more of a novelty for people around my age because they don’t even know that it’s a thing. “They’re like tiny photos!”
     
  9. esearing

    esearing Member

    Messages:
    249
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    North GA
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    No one has mentioned Bergger yet. Their 400 speed film seems likeable and their black and white printing papers are of good quality. But I think they are too much like Ilford products to justify spending the extra premium for their products.
    Moersh is another long standing chemical company that is serving a niche market, but you rarely hear of them in the US.

    Ilford could benefit from buying/inheriting some old paper formulas like Portriga. Give us more reason to explore.
     
  10. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber

    Messages:
    26,634
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    Location:
    Southern California
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Groups:
    Please keep your tongue in your cheeks and out of other people's mouths, especially mine. :mad:
     
  11. RPC

    RPC Member

    Messages:
    1,090
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    This is why I feel the best use of color film is for printing in the home darkroom.

    I do my own darkroom color prints from negatives I develop myself, and prefer the natural look over the highly manipulated digital prints I see from stores or labs. And prints from film scans are highly dependent on scanning quality, with which there is often problems .

    I mostly use medium and large format film to make prints and with these, there is no comparison with respect to color, better tonality, natural sharpness, and dynamic range; it beats digital.

    I think the sales of color films would increase if more people could see the excellent quality of prints possible from film, done right, in a home darkroom, where, although it takes longer than digital, image quality is superior and one has total control. In addition, there would be more sales of chemistry and darkroom equipment to help keep analog photography alive. But the misfortune is, very few today color print anymore.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2017
  12. vsyrek1945

    vsyrek1945 Subscriber

    Messages:
    138
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Location:
    Long Island,
    Shooter:
    35mm
    True enough, and there were so many instances of hubris and corporate arrogance to cite going back to the 1960s (and folks older than I can probably cite prior examples) that make one wonder how they didn't implode sooner. A few examples from personal experience and observation:

    126, 110, disc, and APS film formats;

    The Retina S2 35 mm camera my sister gave me as a Christmas present in 1969, a selenium-meterng, scale focusing 35 mm P/S with so-so lens flash cube socket and hot shoe;

    Adoption of the PGI (Print Grain Index) for measuring resolution when their color print films compared poorly to competitors' RMS ratings, which, thankfully, no other manufacturer adopted;

    Various tweaks to Ekta/EliteChrome in response to Fuji and Agfa products.

    Others have been recounted on this and other forums. In one regard, Kodak's existence was likely prolonged as long as it was because of their marketing prowess, as they were trading on their past reputation rather than innovation and quality.
     
  13. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber

    Messages:
    26,634
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    Location:
    Southern California
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Groups:
    Those formats were developed to use less film and silver per photograph. Please developing new formats helped the manufacturers sell new models.
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

    Messages:
    22,485
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Location:
    Delta, BC, Canada
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Whenever I see a comment like this, I realize how many people who don't have trouble with 135 or 120 film don't realize how much of a barrier the technicalities of handling those films were to so many people.
    I worked in camera stores and camera departments when 126 and 110 were prevalent, and saw the first uses of disc film. They increased the use of film tremendously.
    I doubt I could count the number of people I dealt with who had trouble loading and unloading 135 film - the number was too high!
    The side effect of the creation of 110 and disc formats? Tremendous increases in the quality of all films, including 135 and 120 and movie film.
    And by the way, well I'm sure reduction of silver usage had a cost benefit, much of that occurred because of the improvements in the technology (T-grain). In addition, the introduction of 126, 110 and disc greatly eased the handling issues for mini-labs and other processors, which contributed greatly to the explosion in photography that occurred as a result.
    My first nearly new (actually a within Kodak employee purchase)135 camera was a Retina S1. I would agree that it was a pale ghost of the great Retina heritage, but it served me well. By that time Kodak could see the writing on the wall about camera manufacture - Japanese manufacturers had entered the higher end of the market with great vigour, and a favourable cost structure - so I don't fault Kodak for electing to concentrate on the lower cost market.
     
  16. Theo Sulphate

    Theo Sulphate Subscriber

    Messages:
    4,756
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2014
    Location:
    Gig Harbor & Palm Springs
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I think the only time Kodak both simplified the handling and improved the format (image quality) was in going from regular 8mm spools (so-called double eight) to Super 8 magazines.
     
  17. AgX

    AgX Member

    Messages:
    16,649
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Types 126 and 110 were most successful. Plenty of family memories are safed by these.
    I consider APS a well thought system. It just came too late. And never before so many manufacturers cooperated in advance.

    (Kodak's type 126 even forced Agfa to crank out someting competing over night so to say.)
     
  18. Wallendo

    Wallendo Subscriber

    Messages:
    534
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2013
    Location:
    Pisgah Forest
    Shooter:
    35mm
    The best recent marketing of any sort is, in my opinion, Simon Galley's presence on APUG. Even though he has been gone a while, a lot of that goodwill still remains. Ilford still has some limited presence on Photrio, but it is markedly diminished.
    Ferrania still has a presence, but technical manufacturing issues have been a problem.
    Kodak Alaris and Fuji are MIA. It would be great if both were here. On the other hand, it would take a very tough-skinned rep to come here and listen to the complaints about discontinued films and backing paper issues.
    I, at times, wish film companies would market better, but don't really have a good idea of what cost-effective marketing would look like in 2017.
     
  19. Alan Edward Klein

    Alan Edward Klein Member

    Messages:
    199
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2017
    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Maybe they could sell film better if they advertised that you can get high on the processing chemicals. :smile:
     
  20. Luckless

    Luckless Member

    Messages:
    476
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2016
    Location:
    Canada
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I'm guessing we use rather different chemistry... "Enjoy a slight nagging headache with a chance of feeling mildly unwell for a few hours or even days after working with chemistry..." doesn't sound like a great selling point.
     
  21. AgX

    AgX Member

    Messages:
    16,649
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Sam, how and via what medium should the industry aim at people of your age?
     
  22. saman13

    saman13 Subscriber

    Messages:
    357
    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Location:
    Sarasota, Florida
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Well, I obviously can't speak for everyone, but I know what would work for me, had I not picked it up earlier.

    The reason I got into film photography in the first place was because digital cameras are expensive. I was drawn to the fact that I could get a good, solid camera and lens for under $50. Now, obviously, long term costs increase with film, but I was a college student and I still think pretty short term.

    How did I go about deciding to get into film photography and deciding on a camera? All articles on the internet. As people here have mentioned, an online presence is very important. Articles and Youtube videos on how to to choose a film camera, comparisons on the look and use of different film emulsions, how easy it is developing film yourself, things like that. I know that I basically only read videos and articles written within the past 5 years when I was choosing because I knew that the industry had changed so much in the past 10 years and product availability was constantly changing.

    So, a strong online presence, both written and videos, with in depth reviews and things like that.

    All these companies would also probably do well to look at The Darkroom photo lab Instagram. They do a very good job posting examples of film photos, comparisons of different emulsions, photography contests with pro cameras as prizes, features customer photos, and a very interactive staff member is running it. He always responds to comments, asks what films they're shooting, etc. Ilford does a better job with their Instagram than Kodak because they feature customer photos but nowhere near as good as The Darkroom.

    These are just the things I can think of off the top of my head.
     
  23. faberryman

    faberryman Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,959
    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2016
    Location:
    Nashville
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Don't you already know most of the stuff that would be in their marketing campaign already? Or at least know where you can already get that information?
     
  24. RattyMouse

    RattyMouse Member

    Messages:
    5,628
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Location:
    Ann Arbor, Mi
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Better? I dont think so. No digital camera, nor any software simulation looks as beautiful as Fuji 400H. Or Kodak Ektar.

    I shoot color film strictly for the aesthetics. Digital looks completely sterile in comparison. And even if the film simulations worked, I have no interest in "simulating" what I can do on my own.
     
  25. CMoore

    CMoore Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,008
    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2015
    Location:
    USA CA 94585
    Shooter:
    35mm
    1. It is obvious He was making an Impromptu joke.....even supplied a Smiley Face..... not that it did any good.
    2. We Must Use rather different chemistry. I spend several hours, at a time, in my darkroom and never suffer any of what you do.
    upload_2017-10-20_0-5-58.png
     
  26. Europan

    Europan Member

    Messages:
    386
    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Location:
    Basel, Switzerland
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Sorry, only half true. The increase in image area size is 43 percent. The image is placed at the side of a perforation hole. A sound track area is provided on the side opposite to the perforated edge. These are the positive aspects.

    The Super-8 (what a hoax name) cartridge makes a semi-defined film canal together with the camera aperture plate. ISO 1780 defines the cartridge and when you read clause 3.9 of it you can learn a lot about cybernetics engineering: “It is intended that the film surface of the cartridge pressure pad be flat. Pits or depressions, however, which do not interfere with the film flatness, are acceptable. Bumps or protrusions are not acceptable. The tolerances established for the flatness on the 8 mm Type S film cartridge pressure-pad film surface are specified to allow for slight warpage in moulding if the pressure pad is made from a plastic material.” 3.11: “Dimension G2 of figure 3 and table 3 specifies the clearance for film in the picture aperture area. To prevent a mis-match of the cartridge pressure pad seating area and the camera aperture boss, the minimum value of G2 should be established by taking the maximum film thickness to be used by a manufacturer and adding 0,013 mm (0.000 5 in). This change will allow a manufacturer the opportunity to vary dimension G2 according to the thickness of his film product.”

    With the open concept of all other film formats, I mean film guidance by camera parts, you can have better flatness. Most Double-Eight cameras guide and locate the film better than is possible with Super-8. Single-8 and Double-Super 8 are different cakes.

    But what regards marketing Kodak did it right with Super-8. They were cautious in the beginning, cranking the efforts up with success. Today we have another Kodak Co., admitted, but they don’t put their money where their mouth is. Compared to how it went back in 1923, 1932, and 1965 that new Super-8 camera thing plus an announced Ektachrome thing are jokes for dummies. In elder times things were prepared, often in complete secrecy, and then brought out as one blow. No social media crap. Or is it this talkative time?
     
,