Comment about XTOL in Adox / Lina Bessonova video

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

The clearing bath IS NOT OPTIONAL.
It serves the purpose of re-exablishing the film sensitivity to light, because permanganate bleach destroys it.
So it MUST be used.

This apart, wouldn't skipping the clearing bath result in micro damage to the emulsion due to the left over permanganate bleach? Would be nice if @Team ADOX can explain why clearing bath is optional in their reversal kit and dispel all concerns about the possible effects of skipping the clearing bath.

 

[mshchem]

yawn...Much ado about nothing.

Yep.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

Yep.

maybe for you, I find the clearing bath question interesting

 

[DeletedAcct1]

yawn...Much ado about nothing.

then don't follow the topic

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

I find the clearing bath question interesting

Processing instructions for the reversal kit are now available on FotoImpex website. Guess what? The instructions nowhere say that the clearing bath is optional!! It's the fixing step that is optional.

 

[AgX]

Processing instructions for the reversal kit are now available on FotoImpex website

Seemingly they are following this thread...



By the way, keep in mind that for the two Scala films not only the times are different, but also the temperatures!

 

[DeletedAcct1]

The instructions nowhere say that the clearing bath is optional!!

https://www.fotoimpex.com/chemistry/adox-scala-kit-for-bw-slide-processing.html

The ADOX Scala Kit only has two parts (plus an optional clear bath), radically simplifying the black&white reversal process.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

By the way, keep in mind that for the two Scala films not only the times are different, but also the temperatures!

I'm guessing that the first developer has no halide solvent in it and hence it takes too long to develop Scala 160 fully at 20C. Higher temperature processing brings back processing time to acceptable range. It will be fun reversing TMax 400 with this kit.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

https://www.fotoimpex.com/chemistry/adox-scala-kit-for-bw-slide-processing.html

The ADOX Scala Kit only has two parts (plus an optional clear bath), radically simplifying the black&white reversal process.

Yes, the product page says that clearing bath is optional. But the processing instructions (see the PDF file) doesn't say that it is optional.

Seemingly they are following this thread...

@Team ADOX: thanks so much for making the processing instructions available online.

 

[KPA40]

Processing instructions for the reversal kit are now available on FotoImpex website. Guess what? The instructions nowhere say that the clearing bath is optional!! It's the fixing step that is optional.

The sales text in their shop says: "The ADOX Scala Kit only has two parts (plus an optional clear bath), radically simplifying the black&white reversal process. Simply mix the developer and bleach 1+1 with water, and get going!"

Maybee thats just marketing to say "only two step Reversal". Sounds easyer than thre bath reversal.

By the way, I haven't used any fixer for reversal film for the last three years. Absolutely no negative consequences.
Fixer just eats up Dmax.

Olaf

 

[DeletedAcct1]

Fixer just eats up Dmax.
Olaf

Absolutely not.
Here is what is written in Grant Haist Modern photographic processing, vol. 2 about fixers in a reversal context:

"When reexposure by light is part of the reversal cycle, some of the small or inert
silver halide crystals are still present and must be removed by the thiosulfate
of the fixing bath. The fixing bath also removes silver and chromium compounds
that may have formed during bleaching in the dichromate solution.
Removal of these deposited residues helps reduce minimum density, cleans
the highlights, and prevents later discoloration of the highlights. The hardening
action of the fixing bath also helps reduce the swelling in the water wash
that follows fixation, thus lowering the water uptake and speeding the
drying of the processed film or paper."

Prove that fixer is required is here: http://www.21gradi.it/repository/reversal.pdf

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

I haven't used any fixer for reversal film for the last three years. Absolutely no negative consequences.
Fixer just eats up Dmax.

Edit: cross-posted with Alessandro.

Fixing is advised when dichromate bleach is used. According to Haist, it removes chromium compounds that are formed during bleaching and thereby helps in getting better highlights.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

Fixing is advised when dichromate bleach is used. According to Haist, it removes chromium compounds that are formed during bleaching and thereby helps in getting better highlights.

That's not the main purpose of the fixer which is to remove some of the small or inert
silver halide crystals are still present and must be removed by the thiosulfate
of the fixing bath

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

That's not the purpose of the fixer.

Haist: "The fixing bath also removes silver and chromium compounds that may have formed during bleaching in the dichromate solution. Removal of these deposited residues helps reduce minimum density, cleans the highlights, and prevents later discoloration of the highlights."

The puropose of the fixer is to remove some of the small or inert silver halide crystals are still present and must be removed by the thiosulfate of the fixing bath

When you use fogging redeveloper like Dithionite in second development, it is unlikely that any small/inert halide is present after the second development. In case of light exposure based second development, maybe there will be some.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

When you use fogging redeveloper like Dithionite in second development, it is unlikely that any small/inert halide is present after the second development. In case of light exposure based second development, maybe there will be some.

That's correct.

 

[KPA40]

Yes, I am full aware what Mr. Haist wrote in his books. I own both volumes and I have great respect for Mr. Haist (R.I.P.) and his work. All what I can say is fixing eats up Dmax and I discovered no disadvanteges after more than three years.
Of course second exposure is always on the strong side. Washing steps are vigorous. Second development goes to completition.
If there is any damage 50 or 100 years, I'll let you know

Regards Olaf

 

[DeletedAcct1]

Yes, I am full aware what Mr. Haist wrote in his books. I own both volumes and I have great respect for Mr. Haist (R.I.P.) and his work. All what I can say is fixing eats up Dmax and I discovered no disadvanteges after more than three years.
Of course second exposure is always on the strong side. Washing steps are vigorous. Second development goes to completition.
If there is any damage 50 or 100 years, I'll let you know

Regards Olaf

My experience is just the contrary of yours. I've not experienced a single time that fixer lower the Dmax. Fixer on the contrary can soften the gelatine too much causing its lift-off, and that's what I've experienced so far.

 

[K-G]

The only thing 'new' I learned here is that Lina and Mirko are engaged - congratulations!

And now they are married !!! Congratulations to both of them.

https://www.instagram.com/linabessonova.photography/

Karl-Gustaf

 

[koraks]

Well, at least that answers the burning question I had. CHS-100, developed in FX-39, and by the looks of it somewhat underexposed.

 

[MattKing]

by the looks of it somewhat underexposed.

As long as it wasn't under-developed in "mis-behaving" X-Tol
I wish them all the best.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

The bit about old Xtol vs new Xtol was the only thing of interest. I hope they do come out with an improved version... but can they legally? The rest of the video was pretty pointless...

 

[Sirius Glass]

They will not improve on XTOL.

Of course not because it is already perfect.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

In the video, the curve for the new Xtol had a lower contrast... but speed looks same. One would just have to develop longer. Did Kodak adjust their development times for the new version of xtol? By looking at the results on the video, it doesn't appear so.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

They will not improve on XTOL.

I agree

 

[Anon Ymous]

They will not improve on XTOL.

This would require a massive R&D effort, so you're probably right.