Comment about XTOL in Adox / Lina Bessonova video

[MattKing]

As far as I am aware, there is no "new" X-Tol. They had a packaging problem for a while, and supply shortages after that.
Unlike some other Kodak black and white photo chemicals, X-tol is still manufactured in Germany - most likely still by Tetenal.
Unlike HC-110 and T-Max developers, there is no "New Formula, same great results!" note on the Kodak Alaris website.

 

[MattKing]

I find it interesting that we in Canada actually started getting stock availability again for X-Tol sooner than B&H did.
B&H was still out of stock last week (IIRC). They have it back in stock today, although it seems to be 30 - 40% more expensive than when it went out of stock weeks or months ago.
After currency exchange, it looks like it is cheaper at Beau Photo than at B&H .

 

[Ai Print]

I find it interesting that we in Canada actually started getting stock availability again for X-Tol sooner than B&H did.
B&H was still out of stock last week (IIRC). They have it back in stock today, although it seems to be 30 - 40% more expensive than when it went out of stock weeks or months ago.
After currency exchange, it looks like it is cheaper at Beau Photo than at B&H .

I had an alert set so I ordered 20 kits right away and saved about $80 over the current price that kicked in a few days later. I think I have like 100 kits of Xtol now....I’m good.

 

[toyoboyo]

How do you store the unmixed xtol? It has an expiration / best before date that prevents me from stockpiling more.

 

[Ai Print]

How do you store the unmixed xtol? It has an expiration / best before date that prevents me from stockpiling more.

I don’t know that I have ever seen a best before date on any packaging. I was always of the belief that if stored in a cool, consistent and dark place, powered chemistry lasts for quite a while.

My darkroom is generally right at 60F unless I heat it, all my powdered chemistry is stored it large sealed tubs.

 

[NB23]

The best marketing move Kodak could (and should) make, would be to offer their powder chemistry in tin cans, or even in glass bottles. Ok, would be 1$ more expensive, but well worth it on so many levels, including the customer experience.

Enough with the plastic bags crap. Do they sell sardines and tuna in plastic bags? They could, but people wouldn’t buy that crap, even if freshness was guaranteed to last. There is a point where the customer starts getting insulted.

These new bullshit-oversized-one-bag-fits-all-our-oxydized-chemistry is fankly starting to tick me the wrong way.

Bring back the good old cans, bring back the good old folklore into the people’s darkrooms. Make people happy.

 

[pentaxuser]

I don’t know that I have ever seen a best before date on any packaging. I was always of the belief that if stored in a cool, consistent and dark place, powered chemistry lasts for quite a while.

I had never noticed an expiry date( Kodak's actual words so not "a best before" phrase) before either but I may just not have looked for one. However my packet bought as I recall in about March 2019 states an expiry date of April 2021.

I then checked my Microphen from Ilford which is a two pack powder as well and I cannot find any expiry date on this.

I must admit that my belief like yours was that powdered developer unopened in sealed packs has a near indefinite shelf life but the phrase "expiry date" and not "best before" does seem rather definite. It then begs the question: Is this a date by which the powders must be mixed into liquid stock or does it indicate that the clock is ticking all the time and the expiry date is that upon which Xtol ceases to work properly whether in stock form or not?

Does any other long term Xtol users here know for definite that an expiry date is a relatively new addition or has always been there?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Sirius Glass]

How do you store the unmixed xtol? It has an expiration / best before date that prevents me from stockpiling more.

Sealed in the original packaging. Once the package has been opened, mix and seal in bottles to lock out the air.

 

[toyoboyo]

pentaxuser - my bags of xtol are the same, with expiration dates in 2022 I think. I'll probably not be able to make use of all it before it goes, but we'll see when the time comes.

 

[pentaxuser]

pentaxuser - my bags of xtol are the same, with expiration dates in 2022 I think. I'll probably not be able to make use of all it before it goes, but we'll see when the time comes.

OK but how much better if we can decide exactly how to interpret the "expiry date" A lot hinges on whether, as I said, the clock ticks inexorably from the date applied at the packaging stage or does this refer to the date of mixing. If it is from the date of packaging then the question is: Is there something in the powder ingredients that causes deterioration to a fixed point in the future when it has expired or can we rely on the existing consensus that if powder chemicals are properly sealed then there shelf life is as near indefinite as to not matter?

This is important for those wishing to buy stock for say the next 5-10 years and for our usual advice to newcomers and others who ask about powder developers. That advice being that a big benefit of powder developers is indefinite life while sealed as powder

I suppose the simple answer is to ask KA but I have no idea how to do this. Can anyone who has asked this kind of question of KA say how clear its answers are?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[warden]

OK but how much better if we can decide exactly how to interpret the "expiry date" ....
I suppose the simple answer is to ask KA but I have no idea how to do this. Can anyone who has asked this kind of question of KA say how clear its answers are?

Speaking of expiry dates, my old bottle of Tmax developer has the expiry date printed on the bottle. The new packaging for Tmax developer has no expiration date. Don't know why.

 

[MattKing]

The expiry date on powder packages most likely reflects the durability of the packaging, taking into account what happens to packages in the light and heat on a store shelf.
I have had very old plastic packages get brittle.
As I understand it, "Use before" dates are also part of ISO certification.
And as for the T-Max developer bottles, I bet there is a hard to read date there somewhere

 

[Sirius Glass]

The best marketing move Kodak could (and should) make, would be to offer their powder chemistry in tin cans, or even in glass bottles. Ok, would be 1$ more expensive, but well worth it on so many levels, including the customer experience.

No, not really. That is a bad idea gone very very wrong. Do you really think that the people that do the R&D and production of photochemicals are really so stupid that they did NOT look into that and other ways of packaging? It is really easy to hide behind a computer and Monday morning quarterback. Work as an engineer or chemist for a decade and then you will understand what is wrong with your complaining.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I would also really like to see 1l return. I HATE mixing these giant 5l packets.

Solution: Get StopLossBagTM from www.StopLossBags.com and then you can seal off with no air the five liters in five one liter bags.

 

[NB23]

Oh please. You are the monday morning quaterback, as far as I’m concerned. I am telling you what I, as a consumer, would want. And what WAS DONE during the golden years, before they all sold their mothers and started cost-cutting everything.

I, the consumer, want my dry chemicals to be offered in two forms.

1: In tin cans. I would LOVE this.

2: Powder in 1 Liter brown bottles, with a 1” opening and with an embossed Kodak Logo, and a big yellow cap. These bottles would get reused and would prove to be a very effective long term marketing move.

I’m fed up withe the cost-cutting ungraceful plastics of all kinds. Give me a tin can or a brown bottle. I will pay the 1.12$ extra.

No, not really. That is a bad idea gone very very wrong. Do you really think that the people that do the R&D and production of photochemicals are really so stupid that they did NOT look into that and other ways of packaging? It is really easy to hide behind a computer and Monday morning quarterback. Work as an engineer or chemist for a decade and then you will understand what is wrong with your complaining.

 

[NB23]

The golden years. When chemicals never ran out of date.

 

[warden]

And as for the T-Max developer bottles, I bet there is a hard to read date there somewhere

I just checked and you're right Matt. On the old packaging they inkjet printed the expiry directly on the bottle (left), while the new packaging has the expiration pre-printed as part of the label. I imagine deleting the production line printer is a cost savings for them.

 

[MattKing]

Solution: Get StopLossBagTM from www.StopLossBags.com and then you can seal off with no air the five liters in five one liter bags.

As X-Tol comes in two separate bags, five bags won't cut it.
But it does make sense to physically protect your packaged powdered chemicals. I use Zip-Loc bags or cheap Tupperware clones for the purpose.

 

[pentaxuser]

The expiry date on powder packages most likely reflects the durability of the packaging, taking into account what happens to packages in the light and heat on a store shelf.
I have had very old plastic packages get brittle.

Makes sense, Matt and that's certainly much more encouraging, Matt. I must admit that I had assumed that all packs of Xtol were like mine so sitting in a dark cupboard at between about 17 and maybe max 24C, with nothing else even touching the packs. However Kodak has to allow for much poorer storage condition s than that

Hopefully my sealed packs are good for a lot longer than the expiry date.

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Sirius Glass]

Hmmm. Aren't you the one you says follow the manufacturer's directions, and PE's advice? Rule numero uno is you can't reliably divide powder chem mixtures into smaller amounts.

Absolutely. I mix the five liters and store in in one liter air evacuated containers. That is why I cannot see the advantage of dry developers in a glass jar or a can. Pour out a liter's worth of XTOL by eye? Are you f****g kidding me? That would only increase the cost of the packaging for theoretical improvements, if you have a large enough pin head to dance on.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Makes sense, Matt and that's certainly much more encouraging, Matt. I must admit that I had assumed that all packs of Xtol were like mine so sitting in a dark cupboard at between about 17 and maybe max 24C, with nothing else even touching the packs. However Kodak has to allow for much poorer storage condition s than that

Hopefully my sealed packs are good for a lot longer than the expiry date.

Thanks

pentaxuser

They do. BTDT.

 

[NB23]

Absolutely. I mix the five liters and store in in one liter air evacuated containers. That is why I cannot see the advantage of dry developers in a glass jar or a can. Pour out a liter's worth of XTOL by eye? Are you f****g kidding me? That would only increase the cost of the packaging for theoretical improvements, if you have a large enough pin head to dance on.

That’s what you do when you have 20 packs of xtol? You store them in ONE HUNDRED 1L bottles and wanna sound smart about it?

 

[Sirius Glass]

That’s what you do when you have 20 packs of xtol? You store them in ONE HUNDRED 1L bottles and wanna sound smart about it?

1. While I buy to keep things from the hoarders , I would never have twenty XTOL packs. The most I have ever had of photochemicals is one spare.
2. I would never mix twenty packs of XTOL, they are saver stored as packed until needed.
3. Would you buy a brick of film and immediately load it into the request number of identical cameras?

 

[NB23]

Lotsa people in this discussion have purchased a lot of packs.

As you probably know, people like me have jumped on buying a lot of the old packs because Kodak was messing up with its products, AGAIN. And they did, as was expected.

Now it is just a matter of time before the powder expires, because it does. Kodak, in its true american spirit, understood that its chemistry shouldn’t be lasting forever, and that’s when they chucked the tin cans for bags. In other words, to f*ck the customers.

Now you know why tin cans are better and why kodak discontinued them: because it wasn’t making business sense to offer such a reliable product.

 

[MattKing]

They don't package powdered chemicals in cans or bottles any more because it is a lot more expensive and, in the case of bottles, difficult to ship cans and bottles.
In olden times that NB23 preferred, they used to have enough volume to fill up multiple trucks at a time, and those trucks delivered to warehouses and stores, not tiny mail boxes in multiple unit apartment buildings. Shipping issues weren't nearly as critical back then.
I'd be prepared to pay a bit more for more durable plastic containers that are better suited to low volume users -- things like a package of X-Tol that contains two sets of 2.5 litre packages.