Color correction for Rollei Digibase CR200?

[Nzoomed]

Hi everybody!

The results are finally in!

I packaged my 100 foot roll of Agfa Aviphot 200 E-6 color slide film 35mm, I got 20 36 exposure rolls with lots of frames leading and trailing to take care of the fiber optic type "Light Piping" characteristic of Agfa's Polyester base films.

The two test rolls shot look absolutely wonderful! Just like the former Agfa RSX II 200 slide film, with just a touch of warmth bias charateristic of the much beloved Agfa slide films, I am not seeing any grain per se, just great color slide film with excellent color rendition.

Shame on Maco.de for packaging rotten damaged yellow color slide film from AGFA! Shame on the folks at Lomography for packaging and selling rotten yellow damaged color film from Agfa!
Shame on all the other vendors that are in "Denial" about selling Rollei CR-200 and Lomography X-pro 200 as being a neutral color rendering slide film! I would say Freestyle Photo in Hollywood is one of the most in denial about their "Yellow" Rollei CR-200 slide film, But Oh! they will give you a refund if you are not satisfied! Really useful after spending 10 bucks to get this bad roll developed! Really helpful!

Wittner-Cinetec in Germany who has packaged FRESH, not old crappy yellow Agfa Aviphot 200 Chrome E-6 slide film from Agfa Belgium in 35mm X 100 foot rolls is a true hero for those of us that crave real and fresh AGFA RSX II 200 ASA color slide film.

This film looks absolutely fabulous! I had mine processed by a local lab that does E-6 with the Refrema "Dip and Dunk" system.

Perhaps we could get Wittner-Cinetec to cut and roll us some 120 film? Meanwhile if you want 120 film you can get "Puke Yellow" agfa slide film from Maco/Rollei or the Lomography people, Bleah!

So are you suggesting that this yellow cast is from old film?
BMbikerider has lengthened his first developer to reduce the grain, but how can i tell my film lab to do this? Would this be equal to push/pull processing by 1/2 a stop? Im not sure.
Im keen to get some fresh Rollei Digibase and shoot it myself.
Did i also read somewhere here that you can shoot it at a lower film speed (100 ISO) and get finer grain?
It looks a good film indeed, and Wittner-Cinetec are now selling it in super8 format! So i cant wait to shoot it.
Is it possible for me to get some 35mm film packaged from them? Id love to shoot some in my Olympus XA3.
It indeed looks the best alternative to kodachrome or E100G

 

[tsiklonaut]

Can you guys stop messing around with comparisons and give us the true answer: is it the (ex-) RSXII or is it a completely different film? :confused:

I do have some IT8 calibration targets for RSXII, a film I loved, but I've never risked buying the CR200 since I thought it's a different thing. I hope someone clears this up for us once and for all?

Thanks in advance,
Margus

 

[Nzoomed]

Thanks for your info Alpenhause, its very interesting to learn this about the "yellowing" effect that people have experienced, so all these theories about it being yellow as its designed for aerial use should go out the door?

Are you suggesting that all of this film that is packaged as Rollei Digibase is bad stock? I understand AviPhot 200 Chrome film is the same stuff, but obviously the supplies that Wittner-Cinetec supply must be fresher however their site is in German, and hard to navigate, I cant find any 36 exp rolls of the stuff available there, do i have to buy 100feet rolls?
If so, i dont have any means to repackage it into 35mm film canisters.
Im seriously keen to try this as a replacement for E100g.
I see some sellers on Ebay selling Digibase CR200 as fresh stock which wont expire until 2015, so this may be ok to shoot to you think?

How grainy do you feel this film is?
From reading other threads, its possible to reduce the grain by changing the first developer time.
Is it much more grainer than E100g?
They are now selling super8 cartridges of this too, and i intend to shoot some of this at some stage, for it to be used in super8, i can only imagine that the grain cant be any worse than Ektachrome 64, i know E100D has a finer grain than the earlier 64.

Any sample photos you shot on this, im keen to see.

 

[AgX]

Wittner is a small-gauge cine supplier. Even that they got 30m rolls 35mmDP of that film is extraordinary.

 

[Nzoomed]

Thats quite reassuring news, i just hope they do ditch that old stock, i can see how you would get alot of stock from a master roll, but obviously the stuff Wittner-Cinetec has must be a new batch from a new master roll.
I have contacted them and a 100 foot roll is about 46 euro. Im keen to try some of this, but i have never had any experience in bulk film loading, i take it i have to do it in a darkroom or a lightproof bag?

If you were able to package a roll or two of it for me, i would buy some from you.
Or else ill take the plunge and buy a bulk loader and do it myself.
I cant wait to try this.
Thanks

 

[madgardener]

This is starting to sound very interesting. I wonder if someone could encourage someone at Wittner-Cinetec to join Apug and fill us in on this film. It sounds like really good film and a good alternative to Fuji, price wise. I'm looking forward to trying it.

I've been looking for some bulk rolls of E-6 and finding it is not easy. Every time Ultrafine gets some, it sells out so fast, I don't have time to get any.

 

[Nzoomed]

Ill send them an email and direct them to this thread, hopefully they can shed some light on this.

 

[destroya]

i also looked for a while for bulk load slide film and this is all that i could find. i decided i would give it a try and was very happy with the results, which i posted in a thread in this group.

i would not look at it as a replacement for any current fuji slide film as i would not consider it a pro film. i would compare it to more of an amature/consumern grade film, say ektar 100 to kodak gold. it is not as sharp and has much larger grain. but it still is fun to have an inexpensive option for slide film. i usually roll 6 rolls of it at a time and then develop it with my other e-6 films when i get up to 12 rolls.

for the price give it a try. yeh you have to get the loader and cartridges but then black and white film gets much cheaper!

 

[AgX]

i would not look at it as a replacement for any current fuji slide film as i would not consider it a pro film.

Well, it was introduced by Agfa in their professional range.

But we must not forget that the first version of this film dates back as late as 1996.

 

[Nzoomed]

Well, it was introduced by Agfa in their professional range.

But we must not forget that the first version of this film dates back as late as 1996.

Yes it is a professional film and is being sold for aerial photography, as well as for motion picture use.
Its looking promising for super8 use, so it cant be too grainy.

 

[AgX]

One does not need a bulk loader. So far I have not used mine.
Without bulk loader one also does not have to bother about fogging the end of film (the first part of film going into the cassette with a bulk loader).

 

[Nzoomed]

Ok everyone, here is the response i got from Wittner Cinetec,
He gave me permission to quote his email here, a very interesting read:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for your message and thank you for the given link into the APUG
forum.
Very intersting discussions there!
Unfortunately we are not allowed to participate on discussions about
products of other suppliers.
But I would like to express my gratitude to the members of this forum for
inviting us so friendly to join in.
We very much appreciate it!
But indeed we are always open for suggestions or comments.
I will discuss this issue with Mr. Wittner, if and how we maybe could become
a member of your forum.

About Aviphot Chrome:
The 35mm product was indeed a "side effect" on our way to make this stock
available in the Super 8 and 16mm motion picture formats.
We were in need to get experience how to treat Polyester base to make it
capable of running through motion picture cameras without any problems.
All our MP film stock was Acetate based in the past.
To start with a bigger size (35mm) as a proven format seemed to us more
secure, before moving to the smaller sizes.
We have bought the two Buko film perforators from Efke / Croatia, after they
stopped their production of Efke 35mm film.
Those machines were used to perforate Polyester based film in the past - and
were perfect for us to run first small batches.
In the end, after doing some tests, we finished 36.000 ft in perfect
quality. This product is available now in 1200ft and 100ft length to be used
in 135 still film cameras.
I fully understand your wish to obtain this stock in 135-36 film cartridges.
I promise to ask Mr. Wittner for this kind of finished product. I will
inform you as soon as I can, if there is a chance for such a production.

You are allowed to quote my lines (if my message is understandable due to my
poor english) - if you desire.

If you need any further assistance, please feel free to contact me again.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Best regards

Ingolf Joost
Wittner Cinetec GmbH & Co. KG
Beaulieu Deutschland
Posso Deutschland
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[madgardener]

Wonderful! Hopefully they can join APUG!

It's also good to know that not all the Efke machinery went for scrap and some if it is still being used. I really miss their KB50 and IR820.

 

[destroya]

looks like im gonna need to get another coupled 100' rolls before they get to expensive.

 

[Nzoomed]

I am most pleased that we have companies around the world who still love film, Wittner-Cinetec is a great company.

I set up my "EktaJector" (Kodak Ektagraphic) and looked at my new Aviphot 200 Chrome slides and they look fabulous, did not see any grain to speak of...... Looks like great color slide film to me.

I agree, they have been great to deal with, this will definitely be the next film i want to shoot once i run out of E100g, lets hope they package it in 135 format canisters, as i will be buying it from them if they do so.
Thats also reassuring that you dont notice any grain, i expect it must have a fairly low grain to be used in s8 format.

I have told them that it would be great to get some correspondence from AGFA in regards to the problems with Rollei digibase CR200. This faulty film that Rollei has been selling is Tarnishing the reputation of AGFA, and this is something we dont need right now, i would hate to see their sales drop because people are avoiding the product.
Wittner-Cinetec have a winner product here if they can package it into 135 format canisters.

 

[AgX]

Like Agx had mentioned, Agfa would probably show no interest in how their slide film is working out.

...

One thing is for certain, Agfa and Maco/Rollei know what has gone wrong and just won't comment, How does that grab ya?

I doubt that Agfa knows about this.

 

[Nzoomed]

Like Agx had mentioned, Agfa would probably show no interest in how their slide film is working out.

I would say that Maco/Rollei are to blame for the Yellow slide film, Agfa usually sells "Master" rolls to outfits like Maco/Rollei for Maco/Rollei to cut down to user sizes like 35mm or 120, I am thinking somehow the film was mishandled, stored in hot humid conditions, because really old outdated Agfa slide film that was stored badly often renders yellow slides, who knows, perhaps Agfa knowingly sold a bad master roll to Maco/Rollei?

One thing is for certain, Agfa and Maco/Rollei know what has gone wrong and just won't comment, How does that grab ya?

It is great that Wittner-Cinetec has taken the time and effort to make darn sure the master rolls they purchased directly from Agfa Belgium are properly aged and in proper working order to produce color slide and movie film that people will be very happy with, I would bet they have experienced a sharp upturn in sales of 35mm slide film just because of the posts on this forum. Rollei/Maco perhaps now are experiencing a big slump in sales of their CR-200 slide film, who is going to buy it anymore? I guess it will still be good as a "Cross-Process film in C-41 chemistry.

The Lomography folks should be concerned as well because they get their Aviphot Chrome 200 slide film from Rollei/maco as well but only really market it as a Cross-Process film.

Perhaps Wittner-Cinetec might have purchased some second hand machinery to package 35mm film into normal cartridges? Lots of used genuine Agfa production equipment from Leverkusen was sold to Adox and others, Maco/Rollei most likely has some of Agfa's film cutting and packaging equipment.

I dont know if Agfa know or not, if they do know, they obviously not too concerned, since the Rollei product is a third party source, id say anyone using this film in a professional way are buying it directly from Agfa in belgium, it appears to be marketed for aerial photography, but Agfa only seem to be supplying master rolls of the stuff to third partys.
The odd thing is it still seems to be used extensively with aerial photography and one Aerial photographic website ive visited sells CR200 solely for this very purpose, you would think they would be the first to complain about any issues with this film, yet they seem to just put up with it perhaps?

I really would like to get to the bottom of this once and for all, as it would be very sad to see this emulsion fall off the scene if sales decline.
I just cant wait to shoot some! But no way in hell am i going to buy the Digibase CR200, i want to get it from Wittiner-Cinetec.

 

[ntenny]

I think it's interesting that there seem to be different degrees of the "yellow problem"; a number of people have gotten batches of the Maco/Rollei packaged film that were somewhere between "very warm" and "a little yellowish", while others have had film that was really severely yellow-skewed. Whatever happened to this film, it doesn't seem to have been an on-or-off problem but something with variable effects from sample to sample.

It'd be nice to see a correctly balanced version available in rolls, but considering the grain I'd get much more interested if it were available in 120 than in 35mm. Better yet, someone bring back RSX II 50!

-NT

 

[Nzoomed]

I think it's interesting that there seem to be different degrees of the "yellow problem"; a number of people have gotten batches of the Maco/Rollei packaged film that were somewhere between "very warm" and "a little yellowish", while others have had film that was really severely yellow-skewed. Whatever happened to this film, it doesn't seem to have been an on-or-off problem but something with variable effects from sample to sample.

It'd be nice to see a correctly balanced version available in rolls, but considering the grain I'd get much more interested if it were available in 120 than in 35mm. Better yet, someone bring back RSX II 50!

-NT

RSX II 50 sounds like a great film, but ive never used it.
I think its worth shooting this film, as Alpenhause feels his film has no significant grain. Again, the grain issue may be due to the faults found in the CR200.
Its also possible that Wittner-Cinetec may be able to cut it in 120 format from a master roll, but they probably would only do this if they had enough demand, you can already get CR200 in 120 format, so lets hope that we see some faultless stock from Rollei soon, although i expect we could be waiting a very long time.

 

[AgX]

Its also possible that Wittner-Cinetec may be able to cut it in 120 format from a master roll,...

Type 120 is a conversion more complicated than type 135, as well concerning machinery as well concerning raw-stocks.

And a master roll from Agfa is a huge amount of film...

 

[Nzoomed]

Type 120 is a conversion more complicated than type 135, as well concerning machinery as well concerning raw-stocks.

And a master roll from Agfa is a huge amount of film...

Yes sorry, im really trying to refer to a bulk roll cut down from a master roll.
What width film would Wittner be obtaining i wonder?
They are obviously cutting down and perforating a much wider roll of film, they currently sell 35mm perforated and unperforated, along with 16mm and super8 formats.

If their rolls of film that they are cutting down are wider than 35mm, then chances are its possible to make 120 format.
This brings into question about how much film Rollei are buying, a master roll is a very large amount of film indeed, and if all the CR200 is from the same faulty master roll, then there is a huge amount of the stuff to get through!
Another thing i should mention is that CR200 is the same film used in the Rollei crossbird cameras, has anyone shot one of these cameras and processed in E6, and with what results?

 

[polyglot]

I'm piling in here way late and without having used any of this film, but having followed quite a few yellow Agfa arguments on the forums. I think (and apologies if I'm rehashing someone else's point here) that a couple of things are worth keeping in mind:
- some people get beautiful neutral results from CR200 with no yellow tint whatsoever (I have seen it in person)
- some people get a disgusting yellow cast, varying somewhat in intensity between sufferers (I've seen nasty scans, unprojectable and uncorrectable digitally)
- the yellow cast does not seem to be correctable by filtering the objective lens

There seems to me, from my unscientific observation of forum complaints, to be a correlation between people getting yellow results and using the cheaper E6 kit chemistry, i.e. powders and/or blix kits. Those getting perfect results are either running 6-step Fuji or Kodak chemistry or going to labs who do so.

The reason we see no complaints from the aerial surveillance mob is that they process huge quantities of film in high quality bulk chemistry kept in tight process control. It probably works flawlessly for them.

My hypothesis: there is an issue either with this film or (more likely) with the cheaper chemistry kits that manifests only when the two are combined. An incompatibility as it were, which probably results in incomplete bleaching or maybe over-reversal (e.g. re-activation of some sensitivity in the highlights, causing yellowed Dmin), or blix-preservative (blix not being part of the documented E6 standard process) tested only with Fuji+Kodak films reacts with the Agfa, or something else entirely. I could guess until I'm blue in the face, but the Kodak and Fuji process instructions both give guidance on possible causes of various casts.

So if you've tried this film, a) did it work cleanly and b) which brand of chemistry did you use?

 

[AgX]

These are interesting thoughts. But... why was that yellowing not reported in times of the Agfa RSXII 200?

Basically chemistries can be of influence. Agfa even warns that with one of their current C-41 flms coloured streaking can occur with some types of (non-Agfa) bleaches if they are used outside their limits.

 

[stefan4u]

Homebrew may be a solution...

If you have a larger stock of this somehow aged film, and you do insist in using it, I would propose a homebrew of the chemicals. This will the only way to get it projected without major color mismatches.

The blue sensitive, yellow forming layers are on the top of the film, if you have a yellow tendency in the final slide the yellow densities are too low. So you have to restrain development of the upper layers during FD, in order to keep more silverbromide/iodide for the color developing step and the forming of dyes therein.

It will be quite a fiddeling, to get a result without disturbing the color balance too much, but try to use less sulphite in the FD, less KSCN, a pitch more Iodide and a maybe pitch more bromide. Do not overdevelop the film at all, a kind of slight pull process (-1/3 till -1/2 aperture) would be a benefit.
In the CD use less iodide, probably you will have to readjust the pH in the color developer a bit, use a bit less NaOH sol. than usual.

Do this only if you have enough time / chemicals / film and patience…
Regards, Stefan

 

[AgX]

If you have a larger stock of this somehow aged film...

We don't know when this emulsion had been made and coated and how it had been stored meanwhile.

By own statement Agfa did order a supply of some years of colour emulsions at AgfaPhoto in insolvency for deep freeze. Short after they built up again colour emulsion making/coating facilities again after such had been relocated to the Leverkusen plant years ago.