Chemical Rash ... Where from?

[purple]

I agree with Rodger - I've had far too many "just stop" responses from the NHS.

Shoulder problems with climbing - "just stop" (actually it was an underlying problem that the climbing was *helping*)
Back problems? Stop fencing! (Actually the same issue again, it helps *with* my mobility).
Eye problems? Don't use a VDU for so long! (I'm a systems engineer by trade, and at the time I was studying dor a Comp Sci degree).

I agree that for emergencies they are wonderful. Hell, my father works in A&E and I have nothing but praise for those staff. But the view of most GPs is of the "we've got too many serious problems to deal with, and this is not one of them". Today's experience has just reinforced my opinion again of them.

Apologies to any GPs on the forum who do have their heads screwed on correctly.

 

[Fotohuis]

OK we will make a deal with you for the supply of the AM8008 ECOMAX, S10 and X89 odourless neutral fix from Amaloco the Netherlands. In this case we will offer it for you for free.
Take a look in our web shop:
http://www.fotohuisrovo.nl

For the AM8008 ecomax: http://vonkjes.nl/osCommerce/product_info.php?cPath=31_38&products_id=134
For the S10: http://vonkjes.nl/osCommerce/product_info.php?cPath=31_40&products_id=124
For the X89 fixer: http://vonkjes.nl/osCommerce/product_info.php?cPath=31_43&products_id=153

If this does not work in combination with a good ventilation and a minimum of area evapouration I am afraid nothing will work anymore.
You can contact us via our regulair e-mail available on our web site.

Best regards,

Robert

 

[Bob F.]

Why are you going to an out of hours service? They ARE intended for emergencies so it's no wonder you were given drugs to treat the immediate problem and shoved out the door. Did he tell you to contact your regular GP about it? I bet he did. Will you? Even if he didn't, it's obvious that you should. Men in particular just let things slide with their health - "oh, it's just too much hassle" and go around moaning about the lack of treatment when in reality they did not keep the appointment or didn't even make a follow-up appointment in the first place.

Perhaps I have been lucky but every time I have had an ailment that my GP can't deal with he or she has sent me off to a specialist. OK it may have taken a couple of weeks to get the appointment in non-urgent cases, but I got it and I was never told to go away and stop bothering them with little things.

The second favourite pastime in this country after moaning about the weather is moaning about the NHS. Both have their moments, but in neither case are things as bad as some like to believe.

Cheers, Bob.

 

[pentaxuser]

Purple. I have a little experience of NHS procedures. I'd document each step you take to resolve your prpblem starting with your own GP and let him/her know politely that that is what you are doing. You have a good case for a dermatologist. If you fail to get a referral then ask why and document that. I'd then mention to the GP that you wish to refer the matter to Patient Advice and Liaison Service(PALS). He must respond to this and he or the GP practice manager have to literally advise you of how you go about it. This is powerful stuff and is the start of the official complaint process which take it from me the NHS will take seriously. Legislation is in place whereby it has to. Eventually you could have your case heard by a very senior member of the Primary Care Trust(PCT) executive.

Yes a GP may try to either put you off with "well stop doing it" or try some form of treatment without referral but if he/she realises you are serious about getting to the bottom of the problem then I think you may find the attitude changes.

Believe me GP surgeries cannot afford "black marks" from the PCT who are the fundholder.

It does require persistence and may result in a slightly strained relationship with the GP and it will be far from instant but eventually the "squeaky wheels do get oil". If in the meantime you can self diagnose then all the better but if not then you have the choice of putting up with your issue for as long as you are a darkroom afficionado with the possibility of it gettig even worse or just giving up on your hobby.

I know what my choice would be.

Best of luck
pentaxuser

 

[eumenius]

Dear Purple,

please, don't use the steroid ointments too much - once a week, it's enough. If these creams are used everyday (and perhaps your GP didn't tell you that), they make bad things to the whole hormonal system, and they may eventually lead to skin atrophy and more problems. Steroid drugs should be the very last resort. I think that as a good antihistamine drug you might want to use Cetrin - it's very safe, ask your GP about it.

Cheers, Zhenya

 

[Claire Senft]

How pleased am I thank you are getting relief.

Forty some years ago I was shooting weddings in b&W and printing them on fiber based paper. After working continously for quite a stretch I developed a condition on my right hand that started as an itchy rash, which I ignored. Ignoring the rash was sufficient to allow it to turn into blisters and the back of all my fingers. Ignoring the blisters, while they were still tiny, allowed them to become truly awful buggers that made my right hand very painful, swollen and of no use to me. Those who have seen how clumsy am I when I use my right, would have a hard time believing how truly awful I do things in a left handed manner. I ended up at a dermatologist..I do not remember if an allergist was involved, who supplied me with medication in a salve. A month of the salve put things right. For a period time I wore gloves in the darkroom. Thankfully, the symptons have never returned in a strong manner. I guess in my case it was not so much an allergy as the amount of exposure by having a constantly wetted right hand from processing the paper.

I hope that you have not developed an allergy that is hard to avoid.

What may be helpful, is to wear a mask such as cold sufferers wear when mixing powders into photo solutions. Then in normal processing to wear a long sleeved shirt, a rubber apron, impermeable gloves and vinyl sleeves. These type of sleeves go from wrist to above the elbow. They should be availble at any supplier that sells safety equipment to manufacturers. None of these items are expensive. None of them are fun to wear. There are also some ointments that can protect the skin. Ask your chemist (pharmacist) about them.

I am so very happy that you getting better and so hopeful that you are able to make photos with out becoming ill.


Mr Hicks, Thank you for the additional information on that quote. I do not know that Mr Lincoln claimed to have originated the observation merely that he has been quoted as using it. I will henceforth regard it as belonging in the Time Memorial, not the Lincoln Memorial.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I agree with Dave Millers first post.
load the paper then open all the windows and doors to ventelate the room.

You seem to have an sensitivity to the process that may not allow you to work over trays.
One of the best printers in Toronto , suddenly one day had reactions to the chemicals like you are describing and that was it no more printing.

 

[purple]

Why are you going to an out of hours service? They ARE intended for emergencies so it's no wonder you were given drugs to treat the immediate problem and shoved out the door. Did he tell you to contact your regular GP about it? I bet he did. Will you? Even if he didn't, it's obvious that you should. Men in particular just let things slide with their health - "oh, it's just too much hassle" and go around moaning about the lack of treatment when in reality they did not keep the appointment or didn't even make a follow-up appointment in the first place.

I went to an out of hours service because Bolton now only offers out of hours at weekends. I did not feel that I was in a condition to wait until Monday, and it was either that or A&E. I was given no advice to contact my GP. I contacted them, described what had happened over the phone and they told me to come in for an appointment. I went in, the light lit up for me to go into the consulting room. He asked [name]? I said yes, he pressed what I imagine was print, handed me the prescription and bid me good day. When I attempted to ask what I had been given, he bid me good day again and clearly intended me to leave. I had to ask the pharmacist what I had actually been prescribed. No "go see your regular GP", no "please don't do this again until you've worked out what the problem is", nothing. Just a "good day".

I make a point of *always* keeping appointments. My father is a senior charge nurse for A&E and my mother, before becoming a classroom assistant was a ward nurse. I try my damndest to stay in good health, I do only see my GP when I need to and just that. I've paid for private physiotherapy for several years because the NHS was unable to provide the service I needed (I was point blank told that I would be near pernamently at the back-end of the waiting list because there was/is a shortage of physiotherapists in the local area). Each time I have approached the NHS with a problem, they have simply shrugged it off and told me to simply quit. If I followed all their advice to date I would have no carrer, no sport, no hobbies, and would probably have more medical problems than I do now (I am now in relatively good health, with the occassional niggle. Oh yes, and a hypersensitive reaction to an unknown chemical )

Maybe that's a reflection on the service in this area, but that's the experience

Perhaps I have been lucky but every time I have had an ailment that my GP can't deal with he or she has sent me off to a specialist. OK it may have taken a couple of weeks to get the appointment in non-urgent cases, but I got it and I was never told to go away and stop bothering them with little things.

Back problems: Go away, stretch a bit, find private physiotherapy. (The last bit was the best piece of advice I was given. I found an excellent sports physio and stuck with him since).
Eye problems (muscles in left eye): The *one* specialist I was given. After a twelve month wait. I had three sessions, the lady I was seeing quit, and I was told I was back on the waiting list. For another twelve months.
There are various others, but I'm not listing them. There's no point, the story pretty much reads the same.

The second favourite pastime in this country after moaning about the weather is moaning about the NHS. Both have their moments, but in neither case are things as bad as some like to believe.

I think that really does depend on where you live, and how much money is in the pot. Unfortunately Bolton is somewhat suffering at the minute, and while some services *are* excellent, others are struggling.

I agree though that moaning about the NHS is the second favourite past-time of the UK

 

[purple]

Purple. I have a little experience of NHS procedures. I'd document each step you take to resolve your prpblem starting with your own GP and let him/her know politely that that is what you are doing. You have a good case for a dermatologist...

Thank you for the advice. I'm registering with my new GP on Monday, the whole procedure will take a couple of weeks. Once that's done I'll be able to approach them to see if they can have me referred. One of the issues of moving house :-(

 

[purple]

I agree with Dave Millers first post.
load the paper then open all the windows and doors to ventelate the room.

You seem to have an sensitivity to the process that may not allow you to work over trays.
One of the best printers in Toronto , suddenly one day had reactions to the chemicals like you are describing and that was it no more printing.

Agreed. My next attempt will be with either a Nova or a Jobo tank and healtheir chemicals - we'll see how it goes.

 

[purple]

I just have to say how *amazed* I am by the community spirit all of you have shown me on this issue. Never have I seen such a strong and excellent response from an online community in such a matter.

Hell, in years of software engineering, I don't even see such a good response from the forums and newgroups which bore the internet in the first place!

Thanks again

 

[Bob F.]

Seems you have nothing to lose by going the route Pentaxuser suggests even if you are moving house and GP - that is outrageous treatment by any standards!

Hopefully your next GP will have a brain.

Cheers, Bob.

 

[purple]

Seems you have nothing to lose by going the route Pentaxuser suggests even if you are moving house and GP - that is outrageous treatment by any standards!

Hopefully your next GP will have a brain.

Cheers, Bob.

I'm hoping so too. The area in general seems better than where we previously lived. When the brothel opened shop at the top of the street, and the crack house was being raided several times a month at the bottom, we thought it was time to move.

 

[momonga]

I`ll simply add there is another non-metol, non-hydroquinone print developer that might be available from some suppliers: Fuji Korectol E, a PC type. (Not to be confused with Korectol L, a PQ liquid concentrate). Of course, with a pH over 10, it's not something to get on your hands.

 

[Jordan]

Hi purple, I would agree with the other posters that you should be taking steps to get an appointment with a competent dermatologist -- even if it takes time. However, even if you saw a dermatologist tomorrow, s/he wouldn't be able to look at your skin and determine exactly what caused the reaction, so you'll have to do a bit of investigation yourself.

For this reason, I'll add to the chorus of posters suggesting that you do a controlled study by sitting in your darkroom for an extended period with no trays out (bring a book or some music to stave off boredom) and then introduce the chemicals one at a time. You may want to do this over a period of days. Before you start, visit a pharmacy and get the off-the-shelf antihistamine diphenhydramine (it is sold as Benadryl in North America, but apparently in the UK Benadryl is something different) -- diphenhydramine is an "old school" antihistamine and will make you drowsy, but it is great for skin rashes and works very quickly. (The pharmacy will probably sell it under a store brand.) Keep these pills handy for if (or when) you do get a rash.

Good luck to you and let us know how it works out.

 

[srs5694]

Out of the two most likely culprits, developer and fixer, I may need to source alternatives. Some contributors have already mentioned PQ developer. The only PQ developer that I have found that does *not* contain hydroquinone is Neutol Plus.

A point of terminology: The four most common developing agents are metol (M), phenidone (P), hydroquinone (Q), and ascorbic acid (C). (Variants of at least phenidone and ascorbic acid exist, and all of these go by multiple names.) These letters are often used to refer to the agents; for instance, you might say that D-76 is an MQ developer or that XTOL is a PC developer. Thus, there is no such thing as "a PQ developer that does not contain hydroquinone" -- the "Q" in "PQ" stands for hydroquinone!

As others have said, the most likely culprit among developing agents for your condition is metol. If metol is the problem, then either a PQ or a PC developer will help. Neutol Plus is a PC developer. So is Silvergrain Tektol, but I don't know if it's being imported to the UK. Amaloco AM8008 seems to be a PC developer, too, but I'd not heard of it before reading this thread, so I can't say much about it. Certainly the offer posted by Fotohuis for some free samples looks good, particularly if you determine that either phenidone or hydroquinone is your culprit. I'm less familiar with PQ print developers, but I believe both Ilford ID-62 and Ilford ID-78 are so formulated. I'm sure there are others, too, but I can't name them offhand.

If hydroquinone is the problem, your options are more limited, since you'll need a PC developer; a PQ or MQ developer won't do. (I'm not aware of any commercial MC developers, although I do know of a few mix-it-yourself MC formulas.)

There are also developing agents outside of the four that are being heavily discussed in this thread. Para-aminophenol, catechol, and others all do the job, but they're relatively uncommon, particularly in paper developers. Still, you could try using Rodinal (a para-aminophenol-based developer) for print developing. I've never used it for that, but I've read that it works reasonably well in this role when it's not diluted as much as it usually is for developing film. I'd reserve this option for if/when you learn that your problem is with hydroquinone and you can't find a PC print developer locally.

Of course, all of this could be unimportant; you could be reacting to the stop bath, the fixer, or a byproduct of processing paper in any of these solutions.

 

[Fotohuis]

It's always very difficult to determine what the exact problem is. But known are allergic reactions from Metol, Hydroquinone, Acitic Acid and Sulfur Dioxide. The last one is also reduced due to the fact that AM8008 is containing 70% less Sulfite.

The mentioned AM8008 Ecomax is rather new (2004) and is not containing any Hydroquinone and Sodium hydroxide anymore. After use you can also simply dump it.
To complete the list of this type of paper developers: Also SPUR has this kind of paper developer (Paper Dur Öko) but their production costs and logistics from Germany are rather higher (for us) than the Amaloco photochemical factory which is situated in the Netherlands. SPUR is known from their negative developers SLD, HRX-II and SD2525 and their special high resolution developers for Agfa Copex and Kodak Imagelink microfilms.

Further is Amaloco only exporting to some limited European countries but some (OEM) products are available worldwide under the Rollei label.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

Hello folks,
.

But, after any amount of time in my make-shift darkroom (converted study), the following morning my skin explodes in (for want of a better word) splodges. Large red sore patches, that over the next 24 hours turn into a scale like composition before flaking.

These splodges appear to affect whatever skin is exposed at the time.

These blotches last for three days, and are highly irritating and painful. It is diffucult to concerntrate on work due to the irritation.

.

Dear colleague,
This is an allergic reaction to METOL/HYDROCHENONE in the developper!
I had the same poblem for years an fineley the 'anti poison centre' of the public healt departement helped me out, my phesisian had no erxpertise in chemical allergic contamination.
Stop using developers containing these dangerouse products!

For film you can use X-tol (+/-) or Rodinal (!).
For paper, Neutol + was the answer, but now you have to brew you own Vitamin-C/Phenidone developer.
This is verry simple. See for further info at www.unblinkingeye.com and reed the verry good articlels by Patrick Gainer.
This will help you.

 

[Ryuji]

The last one [sulfur dioxide] is also reduced due to the fact that AM8008 is containing 70% less Sulfite.

I don't know 70% less sulfite from what, but less sulfite in print developer means poor tray life. (Too much is also a source of trouble due to solvency.)

Sulfur dioxide is not a problem in developer solutions since it exists only in acidic solution. Acid fixers always contain two forms of sulfite (bisulfite and sulfur dioxide) in very acidic solution. This is why I mentioned it in my earlier posting.

 

[leeturner]

Purple, it always amazes me how treatment can vary within a couple of miles. I'm about 20 miles from you but with a different health authority. A couple of months ago I went to see my GP. Within three days I had a referall, 10 days after that an ultrasound appointment and several letters and follow up appointments.
I have to admit that after 20 years of living in a country where I had to pay medical insurance, and everything from a doctors visit to and ambulance was chargeable, it's an absolute pleasure to live in a country where I can walk into a GP, A&E or specialist without having to worry about money.

 

[purple]

I have to admit that after 20 years of living in a country where I had to pay medical insurance, and everything from a doctors visit to and ambulance was chargeable, it's an absolute pleasure to live in a country where I can walk into a GP, A&E or specialist without having to worry about money.

I agree that compared to most countries, what we have here is good. I just find the system increadibly frustrating at times and to add to this, the somewhat dismissive attitudes that certain GPs have.

 

[purple]

A point of terminology: The four most common developing agents are metol (M), phenidone (P), hydroquinone (Q), and ascorbic acid (C). (Variants of at least phenidone and ascorbic acid exist, and all of these go by multiple names.) These letters are often used to refer to the agents; for instance, you might say that D-76 is an MQ developer or that XTOL is a PC developer. Thus, there is no such thing as "a PQ developer that does not contain hydroquinone" -- the "Q" in "PQ" stands for hydroquinone!....

Thank you! My bad!

 

[purple]

Just to clarify, I use no Metol. I've noticed quite a few people mention Metol sensitivity.

For my film development I use either:
Rodinal for my mid to low speed films (50-100 ISO)
Microphen for my 400s and push processing.
Neutol for the trays.

Thanks

 

[gainer]

What about creatures that might be inhabiting your darkroom? My late beloved wife used to call them "No-seeums". Some call them "Dust mites." You need a microscope to see them, but not to feel them. Some are more allergic to them than others. Fleas either don't bite me or I don't feel them. If you move into a house that once had pets, some of these creatures can multiply. I once came back from a 2 week vacation when our dog was boarded at a vet and was attacked by solid rings of fleas around the ankles the instant I opened the door. None of them bit me, but the rest of my family was not so lucky. Fumigating is tedious, as the house must be vacated for several hours while it is done and repeated through several birth cycles of the beasties.

 

[PhotoJim]

It's possible that it's dust mites, but these mites are far more ubiquitous than most people think. Anybody who has skin has dust mites living on them. The mites eat your dead skin. They are, to most people, quite innocuous. They are considered to live in a symbiotic relationship with you. They keep the dust in your home to a more manageable level, and in exchange you are giving them tasty treats. Okay, maybe not that tasty.

As a bit of an off-topic aside, my experience with public health care here in Canada has also been very good. Once I had a pain in my side. I had once had a kidney stone and thought I was having another. I saw my GP. He made an appointment with a urologist for later that day. I went, and they found blood in my urine so they knew something was up. The next day I had an IVP at the hospital. No stone. They did an ultrasound. They found a mass that was suspicious, around my kidney. I had a CT scan. The mass was significant and large. Two days later I was hospitalized and I was given an angiogram to rule out a tumour. Thankfully it was not a tumour, just a cyst. I found out later from my then-boss's wife (who was a nurse at the hospital) that I was booked for a nephrectomy (kidney removal) the very next morning if the angiogram had confirmed that I had a tumour. (Kidney cancer is rapidly fatal so a nephrectomy is the usual course - figure out if it's cancerous later.) Total cost to me: zero.