OP
OP
Claire Senft said:
That's simply not an option. Access to dermatologists, like any other speciaist in the UK takes rather a long time.
Chemical Rash ... Where from?
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That's simply not an option. Access to dermatologists, like any other speciaist in the UK takes rather a long time.
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2002
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Could be wiping his face with a gloved hand.
I am lucky not to have such allergies. From what i have heard, metol is the most common allergens for photographers. A developer made of phenidone, ascorbic acid and sodium carbonate with a little bromide or benzotriazole might stand as little chance of being allergenic as anything.
There are, I think, some gloves that are claimed to be non-allergenic, which leads me to believe that some people are allergic to some gloves.
I am lucky not to have such allergies. From what i have heard, metol is the most common allergens for photographers. A developer made of phenidone, ascorbic acid and sodium carbonate with a little bromide or benzotriazole might stand as little chance of being allergenic as anything.
There are, I think, some gloves that are claimed to be non-allergenic, which leads me to believe that some people are allergic to some gloves.
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 498
the powder used in some gloves, even nitrile or vinyl, can be latex based. which is why I use non-powdered, nitrile gloves. I'm not allergic to latex, but from what I've bee told, it's something I don't ever want to develop....it would pretty much screw up your life forever.
fwiw---as a lifelong person with a severe food allergy--I carry an epipen, albuterol inhaler with me at all times, as well as a wad of benedryl. I've been to the emergency room so many times I can't even remember, starting when I was a little kid. I have learned to basically trust nobody when it comes to food prep & eating in restaurants, or even buying packaged foods. You have to take care of yourself---if whatever is causing your rash comes from your darkroom, then tough luck--stay out of the darkroom. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is. If you have ever had a severe allergic reaction requiring a trip to the emergency room--then you do whatever you have to do to avoid that again. Because it *never* gets better the next time. It gets worse, and worse, and.....
I didn't used to be allergic to penecillin, then one day I was. Same with sulfa drugs. Same with so many other things. You're fine for years, no problems, then they begin. 'tis the nature of the beast.
fwiw---as a lifelong person with a severe food allergy--I carry an epipen, albuterol inhaler with me at all times, as well as a wad of benedryl. I've been to the emergency room so many times I can't even remember, starting when I was a little kid. I have learned to basically trust nobody when it comes to food prep & eating in restaurants, or even buying packaged foods. You have to take care of yourself---if whatever is causing your rash comes from your darkroom, then tough luck--stay out of the darkroom. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is. If you have ever had a severe allergic reaction requiring a trip to the emergency room--then you do whatever you have to do to avoid that again. Because it *never* gets better the next time. It gets worse, and worse, and.....
I didn't used to be allergic to penecillin, then one day I was. Same with sulfa drugs. Same with so many other things. You're fine for years, no problems, then they begin. 'tis the nature of the beast.
Your condition sounds serious, more so then what I've ever experienced. My contact dermatitis ended up being from the stainless steel sink, specifically the zinc in the stainless steel. Sounds as though your skin is reacting to vapor. The first culprit would be anything acidic or with a noticeable odor, like stop bath or film cleaner. I wonder if there is a reaction between the salts in sweat and the chemistry in the air?
Don't torture yourself, these days there are many ways to get the job done and still be able to show your work around here.
Chris
Don't torture yourself, these days there are many ways to get the job done and still be able to show your work around here.
Chris
I agree 100% with Dave Miller's suggestion. When possible develope in a print processor tank/drum. I use a 8x10 Unicolor for LF negatives and prints, and 8x10/11x14 Dev-Tec kit for prints. This will help to minimizes your chemical exposure. I can't recall the last time I used a tray.
FWIW, I just did a quick eBay search, and there are two orbital processors available in the UK via eBay right now:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190020329461
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290020353729
I've never used one of these, but the idea looks simple and good. Drums are more common on eBay generally, but I don't happen to see any that are obviously in the UK right now.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190020329461
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290020353729
I've never used one of these, but the idea looks simple and good. Drums are more common on eBay generally, but I don't happen to see any that are obviously in the UK right now.
Here's a link to a site describing someone's Unicolor Print processor usage. As you can see, it's easy to manage. It's just a black plastic tube with end caps and a pour drain.
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/unicolor/
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/unicolor/
Do you have an emergency room care available with a regulat MD? I a, not trying to be an alarmist..If you say you are really suffering, I can offer no better advice than medical attention.
srs5694 said:
For anyone interested there are several Jobo 2840 drums on UK eBay at the moment. These take upto 12x16 paper.
With "smelly" fixers, even in my Nova tank, I get a sore throat for a couple of days (but no skin irritation). I switched to Fotospeed "odourless" (it's not, but it is much less smelly than Ilford's) fixer and do not have a problem so it may be the fixer that is the problem. Airborne fumes from developers are generally low and the Ilford stop bath is indeed citric acid based.
If you want to try it, alkaline fixer is available from http://www.monochromephotography.com/fixer.htm in the UK. I would suggest making your own from one of the recipes on APUG and elsewhere, but that is probably not a good idea at the moment
....
I do think going to your GP and getting referred to a specialist is a good idea - not all GPs think they are still living in the 1950's. No point being all stiff-upper-lipped about it - if you have a problem, go see the experts... Even if it takes a week to get the hospital appointment, get the ball rolling now.
Good luck, Bob.
If you want to try it, alkaline fixer is available from http://www.monochromephotography.com/fixer.htm in the UK. I would suggest making your own from one of the recipes on APUG and elsewhere, but that is probably not a good idea at the moment
....I do think going to your GP and getting referred to a specialist is a good idea - not all GPs think they are still living in the 1950's. No point being all stiff-upper-lipped about it - if you have a problem, go see the experts... Even if it takes a week to get the hospital appointment, get the ball rolling now.
Good luck, Bob.
metol poisoning
'the description of your skin sounds like the old metol poisoning.It is an allergic reaction to that chemicalin developers Print develppers using phenio based agents instead of metol are the easiest way to deal with it I have seen friends give up photography as a profession as they could not even walk into a darkroom with out having an attack. Check with your doctor, but it sounds like metol poisoning
'the description of your skin sounds like the old metol poisoning.It is an allergic reaction to that chemicalin developers Print develppers using phenio based agents instead of metol are the easiest way to deal with it I have seen friends give up photography as a profession as they could not even walk into a darkroom with out having an attack. Check with your doctor, but it sounds like metol poisoning
metol poisoning
The description of your skin sounds like the old metol poisoning.It is an allergic reaction to that chemical in developers Print developers using phenio based agents instead of metol are the easiest way to deal with it I have seen friends give up photography as a profession as they could not even walk into a darkroom with out having an attack. Check with your doctor, but it sounds like metol poisoning
The description of your skin sounds like the old metol poisoning.It is an allergic reaction to that chemical in developers Print developers using phenio based agents instead of metol are the easiest way to deal with it I have seen friends give up photography as a profession as they could not even walk into a darkroom with out having an attack. Check with your doctor, but it sounds like metol poisoning
I can't think of a gas that is highly likely to cause allergy. Among the solutions you mentioned, my suspicion goes to sulfur dioxide gas from the acid fixing bath. Do you have known allergic reaction to sulfur compounds?purple said:
Bob F. said:
Alkaline fixers give off less sulfur dioxide gas but they have more ammonia gas. I think the latter is less allergic but more irritating (which is good--as long as you keep comfortable level of ventilation to keep the odor under control). If this is indeed what underlies the problem (which we don't know!) then neutral or alkaline fix may help but I don't recommend to mix them yourself if you have problems with the odor coming from acid fix. Buy them or have someone mix them far away from you.
Formula and some other info are found here:
Dead Link Removed
I agree with advice to test one item at a time until you isolate the cause. Leave out nothing in the testing. Many years ago I was mis-diagnosed as being allergic to photo chemistry - as I was suffering, it led me to leave the profession and seek another way to make a living. Found out much later it was not the chemistry itself, but the fiberglass sinks in the studio. Photo chemistry will leach out minute amounts of the coating and I am extremely sensitive to the epoxy - my solution now is ABS plastic sinks and no problems.
Good luck finding the source of your misery.
Bob
Good luck finding the source of your misery.
Bob
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Hi,
Heres something that would be good for anyone. I found this idea on the internet. Cover the trays that are not in use. I got some plastic that looks like coreagated cardboard, at a art store. Easy to cut, light, and cheap.
Another plus is less air contact with the chemicals.
I'm no doctor, but I was told by a knowledgeable person that HQ can be just as bad as metol.
Jennifer
Heres something that would be good for anyone. I found this idea on the internet. Cover the trays that are not in use. I got some plastic that looks like coreagated cardboard, at a art store. Easy to cut, light, and cheap.
Another plus is less air contact with the chemicals.
I'm no doctor, but I was told by a knowledgeable person that HQ can be just as bad as metol.
Jennifer
Hello Purple,
I am sorry to hear about your issue. May I have a word too, as a molecular biologist with a strong medical background? Usually all this toxic effect of Metol is in fact a skin reaction on trace amounts of p-phenylenediamine and N,N-dimethyl-p-phenylenediamine present in commercial Metol preparations. Both substances are used (were used) in colour chemistry, and both are VERY bad for health. And they can be found in any Metol just because of its way of commercial synthesis.
The only right way to determine which compound makes you allergic is to set up a small allergy test, like the doctors do: they draw with marker pen some small spots on patient's forearm tender skin, and put in numbered spots some small drops of compound of the interest. After 15 minute exposure the drops are washed out, and the result can be seen in an hour or two - red spots or other reactivity signs, like swelling or rash. This small test is rather unpleasant yet harmless and precise - it allows for ruling out the bad link in chain.
The high immunoreactivity is indeed a very bad thing by itself, so I can recommend you to seek good medical advice - in fact, high reactivity can be very dangerous or even fatal, I speak now about those abnormal reactions like, say, bee stings causing angioedemas.
Good luck, and fine health to you.
Cheers, Zhenya
I am sorry to hear about your issue. May I have a word too, as a molecular biologist with a strong medical background? Usually all this toxic effect of Metol is in fact a skin reaction on trace amounts of p-phenylenediamine and N,N-dimethyl-p-phenylenediamine present in commercial Metol preparations. Both substances are used (were used) in colour chemistry, and both are VERY bad for health. And they can be found in any Metol just because of its way of commercial synthesis.
The only right way to determine which compound makes you allergic is to set up a small allergy test, like the doctors do: they draw with marker pen some small spots on patient's forearm tender skin, and put in numbered spots some small drops of compound of the interest. After 15 minute exposure the drops are washed out, and the result can be seen in an hour or two - red spots or other reactivity signs, like swelling or rash. This small test is rather unpleasant yet harmless and precise - it allows for ruling out the bad link in chain.
The high immunoreactivity is indeed a very bad thing by itself, so I can recommend you to seek good medical advice - in fact, high reactivity can be very dangerous or even fatal, I speak now about those abnormal reactions like, say, bee stings causing angioedemas.
Good luck, and fine health to you.
Cheers, Zhenya
Before going any further I can only suggest to make a visit to a dermatologist how bad your allergic reactions are on photograpic chemicals specially the sulfur dioxide which is often responsible for these kind of reactions.
The only solution to get rid of it for 100% is a digital solution.
However you can minimize the reaction for chemicals and vapour due to:
1) A very good ventilation. Think of a tube ventilation in your darkroom. It's easy to install and you always need ventilation to get rid of also small amounts of vapours and of course for yourself have access to fresh air.
2) Working in closed drums (photo paper and film) or a Nova processor (for paper) will prevent that much vapour will come into your darkroom.
3) Use paper/film developers on ascorbic acid base (the mentioned Amaloco AM8008), citric acid (for stop) and an odourless neutral or alkaline fix (Amaloco X89) to minimize the sulfur dioxide vapour.
4) Use liquid chemicals and certainly do not try to mix up powders when you have allergic reactions.
5) Wear protecting gloves to prevent direct contact with any chemicals.
Do not poison yourself, search it out and take care of above mentioned suggestions.
Best regards,
Robert
The only solution to get rid of it for 100% is a digital solution.
However you can minimize the reaction for chemicals and vapour due to:
1) A very good ventilation. Think of a tube ventilation in your darkroom. It's easy to install and you always need ventilation to get rid of also small amounts of vapours and of course for yourself have access to fresh air.
2) Working in closed drums (photo paper and film) or a Nova processor (for paper) will prevent that much vapour will come into your darkroom.
3) Use paper/film developers on ascorbic acid base (the mentioned Amaloco AM8008), citric acid (for stop) and an odourless neutral or alkaline fix (Amaloco X89) to minimize the sulfur dioxide vapour.
4) Use liquid chemicals and certainly do not try to mix up powders when you have allergic reactions.
5) Wear protecting gloves to prevent direct contact with any chemicals.
Do not poison yourself, search it out and take care of above mentioned suggestions.
Best regards,
Robert
timeUnit said:
It could still be the gloves if you touch your face with your hands. At work we have changed over to hypoallergenic non-powdered nitrile gloves.
As an added bonus, these gloves are purple to match your I.D.!!
Steve.
Hi Purple
I have a spare Jobo 2840 drum. Just PM your details and I'll get it to you if you need it. I'm near Rawtenstall/Bury so not too far away.
I have a spare Jobo 2840 drum. Just PM your details and I'll get it to you if you need it. I'm near Rawtenstall/Bury so not too far away.
purple said:
While other APUGers are trying to help you find the specific source of the problem I would also suggest that you continue to improve the over all ventilation. Kodak stated years ago in a book on building darkrooms that at a minimum you should change all the air in the room six times in a hour.
I have no idea what is offered n England, but possibly by describing what is available here, you or some of our friends can suggest where to buy it there. To address the problem of rental property many discount stores and builder's supply stores offer fans of two types. One is a 24 inch square box fan that is very powerful and fits in an open window. The other is a smaller fan in a metal frame. This also fits in an open window. The sheet metal slides to the sides to fill the open gap and create strong suction.
Installing this either as exhaust or input can get tricky when dealing with light. Ideally sucking fresh air into one end of the long narrow room and out the other would be the most effective. Consider having the fan suck from the next room allowing the input to be fresh air directly into your room. It is difficult to offer suggestions here without a floor plan.
Goof luck. Breath fresh air and get rid of the chemicals that attack you.
John Powers
Abraham Lincoln, an early Republican and a fair country lawyer once stated that a person who acts as their own lawyer is a fool, Could such thinking, when applied to a health condition, have any applicability here?
It is fine to talk about your condition with us photo lab rats but we can give no medicine or other treatment to you that will restore you to good health.
I get the impression that I should tell your mother what you are up to.
It is fine to talk about your condition with us photo lab rats but we can give no medicine or other treatment to you that will restore you to good health.
I get the impression that I should tell your mother what you are up to.
Claire Senft said:
Dear Claire,
I seldom disagree with you but this time I do. The National Health Service in Britain is usually pretty good if you have something seriously wrong with you -- a lot better than having no National Health Service at all, especially if you are poor -- BUT they are inclined to be dismissive of things that are, in their view, trivial.
This would, I fear, be one of them. They are indeed likely to say, "Well, just stop." A good deal of allergy testing can be done by most people of reasonable intelligence, without involving a doctor.
I'd be happy enough to seek a dermatologist in France, or in the United States if I could afford one, but I really think that in the UK, on the NHS, this may not be a goer.
Incidentally, when I read law, the saying was that a lawyer who acts for himself has a fool for a client, and it wasn't attributed to Abe Lincoln; it was generally reckoned to date from time immemorial (or time immoral, as we sometimes say in the trade).
Cheers,
Roger
OP
OP
An update in the situation.
After a bit of a runaround by Bolton medical services, I finally managed to get an appointment at the out of hours GP service (initially they sent me to a nurse practice, who went "why the hell did they send you here?"). I walked through the door for the GP, he shoved a prescription on my hands for Eumovate ointment (steriod cream) and pushed me back out.
I was impressed. I saw him for an entire 30 seconds. I don't think we even exchanged names.
The cream *is* helping, although certain areas of my face are taking slightly longer to settle.
On the "how to avoid doing this again" front, first things first - ventilation. I'm considering purchasing a Ventaxia Solo DP Twin Speed Extractor Fan and somehow mounting it in a piece of hardboard sitting in the window. It's another £100 that I can't really afford - but hey, needs must.
The second move is I'm still going after the Nova upright tank. It seems like a good move that's likely to reduce the amount of chemical I need to be exposed to in the first place.
Thirdly - chemicals. I'm going to attempt the skin test. I've still got batches mixed up, so I'll do swabs from them. Hopefully, this will show up the culprit.
Out of the two most likely culprits, developer and fixer, I may need to source alternatives. Some contributors have already mentioned PQ developer. The only PQ developer that I have found that does *not* contain hydroquinone is Neutol Plus. Aggrivatingly, the only supplier I can find for this in the UK is silverprint, and they are unwilling to ship 5l containers (they'll ship 1l, but they don't have any 1l Neutol). If anybody can suggest alternative sources I would be grateful.
Fixer has also been identified as another culprit. Could anybody please care to help sourcing neutral or alkaline fixer in the UK? I appear to find quite a few sources in the US, but somehow I don't think transporting liquids from US to UK would be a reasonable idea at the minute...
Many thanks folks for your continuing help
After a bit of a runaround by Bolton medical services, I finally managed to get an appointment at the out of hours GP service (initially they sent me to a nurse practice, who went "why the hell did they send you here?"). I walked through the door for the GP, he shoved a prescription on my hands for Eumovate ointment (steriod cream) and pushed me back out.
I was impressed. I saw him for an entire 30 seconds. I don't think we even exchanged names.
The cream *is* helping, although certain areas of my face are taking slightly longer to settle.
On the "how to avoid doing this again" front, first things first - ventilation. I'm considering purchasing a Ventaxia Solo DP Twin Speed Extractor Fan and somehow mounting it in a piece of hardboard sitting in the window. It's another £100 that I can't really afford - but hey, needs must.
The second move is I'm still going after the Nova upright tank. It seems like a good move that's likely to reduce the amount of chemical I need to be exposed to in the first place.
Thirdly - chemicals. I'm going to attempt the skin test. I've still got batches mixed up, so I'll do swabs from them. Hopefully, this will show up the culprit.
Out of the two most likely culprits, developer and fixer, I may need to source alternatives. Some contributors have already mentioned PQ developer. The only PQ developer that I have found that does *not* contain hydroquinone is Neutol Plus. Aggrivatingly, the only supplier I can find for this in the UK is silverprint, and they are unwilling to ship 5l containers (they'll ship 1l, but they don't have any 1l Neutol). If anybody can suggest alternative sources I would be grateful.
Fixer has also been identified as another culprit. Could anybody please care to help sourcing neutral or alkaline fixer in the UK? I appear to find quite a few sources in the US, but somehow I don't think transporting liquids from US to UK would be a reasonable idea at the minute...
Many thanks folks for your continuing help
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