Chemical Rash ... Where from?

[purple]

Hello folks,

I hate for my first post to be a rather unhappy one, but I'm suffering here. I promise more jolly things in the future.

I've been developing my own film for a while now, and recently started doing my own printing. I acquired a Dunco II-66 VC and an entire darkroom set-up from a gentleman who had recently convered to digital (his loss). I love my darkroom to pieces, *but* I'm experiencing serious skin sensitivity problems.

To give background on this, I always use gloves and tongs, and never put my hands directly into the solution. To stop myself touching my face (I sweat quite a lot), I wear a bandana to hold the salty liquer out of the way.

But, after any amount of time in my make-shift darkroom (converted study), the following morning my skin explodes in (for want of a better word) splodges. Large red sore patches, that over the next 24 hours turn into a scale like composition before flaking.

These splodges appear to affect whatever skin is exposed at the time. Until recently I usually wore a short-sleeved t-shirt, and the damage would always be on my forearms and face. Since I started wearing long-sleeved shirts in the darkroom, the blotches only appear on my face now. This leads me to think I am reacting to one of the gases being produced.

These blotches last for three days, and are highly irritating and painful. It is diffucult to concerntrate on work due to the irritation.

The first suggestion put to me was Metol poisoning. I switched out my old stock Paterson Universal for Agfa Neutrol, and for good measure switched by Fixer to Ilford Rapid Fix and my Stop Batch to Ilford Ilfostop (which I believe is citric acid rather than acetic acid). I use a litre of chemicals in quite large trays (12x16?) and use the following procedure:
Expose
90 seconds Neutrol (1+11)
60 seconds Stop Bath
30 seconds Fixer.

Prints are moved by tongs only. After the fix, the print is moved directly to a holding tank, and then regularly transferred into the bathroom for washing.

The next suggestion was that ventilation was an issue. Ventilation is not fantastic, the room is air-tight until I open the door. The past few sessions, I have been religiously trying to force the air through by opening door and window, and encouraging a draft somewhere in the region of every ten to fifteen minutes. I usually work in the darkroom for a maximum of two hours per session (at most a session per day). I am still experiencing the same symptoms.

I really am suffering here, and may have to give up printing if this continues. I'm sorely tempted to invest in a Nova Monochrome Print Processing Tank - is this going to help (minimum chemical exposure to the atmosphere), or am I missing something more fundamental here?

If anyone can suggest alternative chemicals, or even spot which chemical may be causing the problems, I would be eternally grateful.

 

[timeUnit]

I'm no expert, never had issues.

How big is your darkroom?

From what you write, I'd say it's poor ventilation. You might have to invest in a good exhaust system -- some kind of vent hood. A rash like this is not to be toyed with, so try to fix some kind of ventilation soon.

 

[Peter Rockstroh]

Sorry to hear about your reaction. I`ve seen that only once with a student of mine during a photography course, and the reaction stopped when he switched from Dektol to Ilford`s Bromophen - if I remember the brand name correctly - print developer. I think that if you contact a dermatologist and take samples of all liquids, he should be able to determine with a skin contact test which specific product causes that reaction. Hope you find a solution.

Best,

Peter

 

[Dave Miller]

I have suffered in a similar way, and as a result have to do my processing in enclosures such as JOBO drums and Patterson Orbital Processors with small amounts of chemicals held ready in capped containers.
When using open trays I find that my skin sensitisation builds up slowly over a period of days, or weeks, but once I am sensitised, the irritating skin rash will appear very quickly. It then takes a period of weeks for me to become desensitised again.
My processing method keeps any possible chemical contact to a minimum, it also happens to be very frugal in chemical usage. I did try a NOVA processor but this still allowed my wrists to be attacked.

 

[purple]

I'm no expert, never had issues.

How big is your darkroom?

From what you write, I'd say it's poor ventilation. You might have to invest in a good exhaust system -- some kind of vent hood. A rash like this is not to be toyed with, so try to fix some kind of ventilation soon.

You have no idea how much I would love to bring in a vent hood, or any kind of decent exhaust system. Unfortunately, I live in rented property and I don't have a huge amount of flexibility regards installations. Hence, the window draft where I can.

Dimension wise - the room is approximately 15ft x 6ft. It's thin, and quite long. However I experienced the same problem in my previous house, for which the workroom/darkroom was three times this size.

 

[purple]

Sorry to hear about your reaction. I`ve seen that only once with a student of mine during a photography course, and the reaction stopped when he switched from Dektol to Ilford`s Bromophen - if I remember the brand name correctly - print developer. I think that if you contact a dermatologist and take samples of all liquids, he should be able to determine with a skin contact test which specific product causes that reaction. Hope you find a solution.

I believe Dektol contains Metol, and I can see clearly where that problem was coming from.

Is phenidone (and the associated Ilford develoeprs) really the Holy Grail that I keep reading about? I'm quite reluctant to buy more chemicals until I know if *this* time I'm not going to spend three days in pain and agony.

 

[psvensson]

I'm not a chemist, but of the chemicals you use, the fixer seems the most noxious. Even if you've eliminated the acetic acid from the stop by switching to one based on citric acid, there could be acetic acid vapors from the acid fix. You could try an alkaline fixer, but I'm not sure what's available in Britain.

Or is it possible that you're allergic to sulfur dioxide/sulfite? If so, be very careful, since the stuff is added to wine and dried fruit.

 

[Aggie]

You are using gloves. Have you ever considered you have developed a latex sensitivity? It could also be if they have a powdered coating inside of them, you are allergic to the powder. Try it once without the gloves and see what happens.

 

[Aggie]

quick reply also if it were the ventilation problem you would also develop a serious problem with breathing. The linings of the lungs are ultra sensitive, moreso than your skin. so if you were reacting to an airborne allergen it would also have the respiratory effects.

 

[timeUnit]

You are using gloves. Have you ever considered you have developed a latex sensitivity? It could also be if they have a powdered coating inside of them, you are allergic to the powder. Try it once without the gloves and see what happens.

He can't be wearing the gloves on his face though, right? ;-)

 

[purple]

I'm not a chemist, but of the chemicals you use, the fixer seems the most noxious. Even if you've eliminated the acetic acid from the stop by switching to one based on citric acid, there could be acetic acid vapors from the acid fix. You could try an alkaline fixer, but I'm not sure what's available in Britain.

Or is it possible that you're allergic to sulfur dioxide/sulfite? If so, be very careful, since the stuff is added to wine and dried fruit.

As a proud old-school member of the Durham University Wine Soc, I would have noticed a problem with wine before

I'm not ruling out sulfer dioxide, it sounds like a plausible option. But would it have been relatively straightforward to spot with the quantity of wine I used to consume?

 

[purple]

You are using gloves. Have you ever considered you have developed a latex sensitivity? It could also be if they have a powdered coating inside of them, you are allergic to the powder. Try it once without the gloves and see what happens.

I use medical grade nitrile gloves. Not out of need, simply out of availibility. It's easier for me to get my hands on nitrile *cough* than it is latex.

I would be more comfortable working with the gloves than not.

 

[purple]

quick reply also if it were the ventilation problem you would also develop a serious problem with breathing. The linings of the lungs are ultra sensitive, moreso than your skin. so if you were reacting to an airborne allergen it would also have the respiratory effects.

No respiration problems, HR normal, BP normal (checked).

 

[fschifano]

I was thinking along the same lines. Anecdotal evidence (to me at least, I haven't done the study) suggests people can suffer an allergic reaction to Metol. I've never developed a problem like this and I usually use my bare hands in trays. What really surprised me was that the latex gloves I was using caused me some discomfort, though not to the extent that you describe. Nitrile gloves work well and are hypoallergenic. You could give them a try as well, but I'd really go see a dermatologist. Are you going to take medical advice from a bunch of photographers? Not a good idea.

 

[raucousimages]

Eliminate all variables. Spend some time in there with nothing out, just sit and read or something (it could be something else in the room) then only the gloves then each chem one by one. find out if it is one of these. It could be a combination of factors. It will take a few days but might be worth the effort. Good luck.

John

 

[Tom A]

I am having some similar problems with my skin and printing, red sore patches on my forearms. It has helped me a bit to shift from Tetenal Eukobrom to one of the new "eco-friendly" developer, Amaloco AM8008 ECOMAX. The red pathces is less pronounced now and my search for a responsible chemical has shifted to my fixer (Tetenals Superfix) - which according to Tetenals Safetysheet gives of vapors(?) of ammonium sulphur dioxide, which is a skin irritant. My plan is to replace Superfix with a alkaline fixer based on sodiumthiosulfat, I don't know if it will help, but I will give it a try.

I know all this searching after the "best" chemical is only trying to cure the symptons, the best solution is better ventilation. Which also will be my advice to you!

Tom

 

[purple]

Eliminate all variables. Spend some time in there with nothing out, just sit and read or something (it could be something else in the room) then only the gloves then each chem one by one. find out if it is one of these. It could be a combination of factors. It will take a few days but might be worth the effort. Good luck.

John

I may try this idea. I know the room itself is fine (it's also my machine room, I spend long quantities of time in there), and I know the gloves are also fine (I've been using them for a variety of things for years). But the idea of exposing each chemical seperately could be an interesting experiment.

The downside is that at some point in this experiment I'm guarenteed to explode in pain and anguish again, which is not a state of affairs I relish. But needs must.

 

[purple]

I was thinking along the same lines. Anecdotal evidence (to me at least, I haven't done the study) suggests people can suffer an allergic reaction to Metol. I've never developed a problem like this and I usually use my bare hands in trays. What really surprised me was that the latex gloves I was using caused me some discomfort, though not to the extent that you describe. Nitrile gloves work well and are hypoallergenic. You could give them a try as well, but I'd really go see a dermatologist. Are you going to take medical advice from a bunch of photographers? Not a good idea.

It's not medical advice I'm looking for. If I go to a GP over here, the reaction would be "well stop doing it then". It's the same reaction as you get for sport and various other things ("you're back hurts? well stop fencing then..."). What I am looking for are people who can go "aha - I recognise that, I fixed it by *this*" and similar.

I'm very grateful for all the advice I'm receiving here.

 

[Markok765]

What dilutions for fixer and stop bath?

 

[srs5694]

A few random thoughts:

• If you're willing to use yourself as a guinea pig, you could try sitting in your darkroom while you do something else (read a book, watch TV, whatever) while leaving just one of the chemicals in a tray. If you get no reaction, repeat this the next day with the next chemical in the line, and then the third. This should tell you which chemical is causing you problems, so you'll be able to concentrate on it.
• There are actually several products in the Agfa Neutol line. (Note the correct spelling; doing a Web search on "Neutrol" is unlikely to get as many good hits.) Agfa Neutol Plus is based on phenidone and sodium ascorbate (the same as XTOL) and is probably the least likely of any print developer to cause allergic reactions. (The new Silvergrain line is based on the same basic chemicals, but I don't think it's available in England.) I don't know if other products in the Neutol line are metol-free. They might be, but I'm pretty sure they're not based on sodium ascorbate, which means they probably contain hydroquinone, and it's possible you're reacting to that.
• If you ultimately discover that the problem is with a common developer chemical, you might want to look into mix-it-yourself chemistry. There are lots of formulas out there, and you'll be able to pick one that you're sure lacks whatever is causing your reaction.
• An earlier post suggested using closed processing systems, like drums or orbital processors. This is certainly worth a try. You won't get to see your prints come up in the tray, but that's a small price to pay to be free of a painful rash. If you can process film in a tank without experiencing problems, chances are you'll be fine with drum or orbital processing of paper.
• I concur with an earlier poster who suggested seeing a dermatologist. Somebody who specializes in skin conditions is more likely to be able to help you quickly track down the problem. I'd further suggest seeing a dematologist who's been in the business for more than ten years. With the decline in darkroom use recently, younger dermatologists would be far less likely to have ever encountered issues related to darkroom chemicals.

 

[Aggie]

Easy testing at home. Dr's will do a patch test to see about allergies. Take a small drop of each chemical and just lightly brush a very tiny smpot on your forearm. do a couple at a time. Which ever one reacts you have your culprit. But it may be a specfic chemical in the solution so then you get to break it down to see what part is the allergen. Try using q tip swabs to just lightly touch the skin with the chemical.

 

[purple]

A few random thoughts:

• There are actually several products in the Agfa Neutol line. (Note the correct spelling; doing a Web search on "Neutrol" is unlikely to get as many good hits.) Agfa Neutol Plus is based on phenidone and sodium ascorbate (the same as XTOL) and is probably the least likely of any print developer to cause allergic reactions. (The new Silvergrain line is based on the same basic chemicals, but I don't think it's available in England.) I don't know if other products in the Neutol line are metol-free. They might be, but I'm pretty sure they're not based on sodium ascorbate, which means they probably contain hydroquinone, and it's possible you're reacting to that.

I've just looked at the bottle. Neutol (regular) does indeed contain hydroquinone, so before I go any further I'll attempt to source some Neutol Plus, sans hydroquinone.

I'm already considering the single chem test. A couple of days, and indeed it should show up the problem chem.

God knows what the NHS waiting time for a dermatologist is. And I know that I can't afford to see one privately :-(

A tank would be a possible option.

 

[Claire Senft]

See either an allergist or dermatologist. No, not tomorrow..TODAY.

 

[DKT]

you need to make sure the gloves are powder-free, even nitrile...

fwiw, I have contact dermititis on my hands & wrists. It started several years ago--I work in a darkroom for a living and handle color as well as b/w chemistry for trays, deeptank lines and processing machines. I've been doing this for a living for 20 years now, and I'm really safety concious, and work in a lab with great ventilation & we follow all the OSHA standards as well. Needless to say, I flipped out when I developed (no pun) several golfball sized red, welts that cracked & bled on my hands. Around the webbing of my fingers and up on my wrists. My skin looked like raw hamburger.

I went to a dermatologist, and it took me about a month to figure out what the cause was by process of elimination. It wasn't any of the chemistry. It was the one constant in almost every single photo lab I've ever worked in. The hand cleanser kept near the sinks. 99% of the time, this is pHisoderm.

So that was it for me--My hands are ruined now after years of rinsing them off & using pHisoderm. The same thing happens with Cetaphil as well as any liquid based cleanser. I can only use Dove in very small amounts now. I control the flare ups by using a prescription steroid cream. I have one right now actually on my left hand. I can't even wear my wedding band anymore.

My doctor told me to just keep my hands dry, period & quit washing them. I have learned to just live with it.

I feel your pain though. When it's really bad, I wake up at night & my hands feel like they're burning--I feel like I must scratch them, but you can't do that---it makes it worse, sets up a cycle....

So my advice, is to get some medical advice & figure out the problem is before it gets worse. In my case, I think years of working in darkrooms only made it worse for me & wore down my skin--I don't blame the darkroom though. I've always had really dry skin, and have a host of allergies....

btw--it's my understanding that metol poisioning is on the decline. it's apparently caused by impurities in the chemical, and is not really that prevalent these days.

hope this helps.

 

[psvensson]

Very interesting, DKT. I can't boast that my home darkroom follows any particularly stringent standards, but when I get contact dermatitis, it's from my shoes! Apparently some leather shoes are tanned with methyl mercury.