CatLABS X FILM 320 Pro now available in 35mm and 120

BrianShaw

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… and Delta 3200:

“DELTA 3200 Professional has an ISO speed rating of 1000/31° (1000ASA, 31 DIN) to daylight.

The ISO speed was measured using ILFORD ID-11 developer at 20°C/68°F with intermittent agitation in a spiral tank.

It should be noted that exposure index (EI) range recommended for DELTA 3200 Professional is based on a practical evaluation of film speed and is not based on foot speed, as is the ISO standard.”
 

BrianShaw

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warden said:
But both companies are honest about what speed the films actually are.
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I wouldn’t consider that very honest. It requires reading the fine-print to understand what speed their films really are. A buyer can’t trust the words on the boxes. Maybe not totally dishonest but some might see it as such.

This is like the “strawberry” pop-tarts discussed days ago. If one read the ingredient list they would know what they were getting… if only they read it. A court deemed that dishonest.

Marketing…
 

warden

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It is honest, but they don't make it as easy as it could be to find the information that's for sure. I just pulled out a box of 120 Delta 3200 and it says "EI 3200" on the outside of the box. On the inside of the box there is printed the developing times for seven developers and speeds from EI 400 to EI 12,500. There is no mention of the film's ISO speed on the inside of the box, but if you've seen the box it's not like there is a lot of room left for another paragraph explaining EI vs ISO, testing methods, etc, so instead they suggest visiting their web page for the technical information.

And I agree, btw. Marketing. I'd prefer the true ISO on the box of every film, and then suggestions of best EI on the inside. Ain't gonna happen.
 

MattKing

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On the subject of the Ilford and Kodak "3200" films:
They are specifically designed to be low in contrast at their ISO speed, and to behave well when they are under-exposed intentionally and then their contrast is boosted with longer development.
In the case of the Kodak version, the public information about the film that comes from the distributor - the datasheet - is transparent about that. It includes a detailed description of how best to expose the film, as well as various characteristic curves and a spectral sensitivity graph. You can find the datasheet here: https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/default/files/files/products/f4001_tmax_3200_0.pdf
And the website promotional listing for the film has this very useful set of questions and answers: https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/default/files/files/products/P3200_FAQs.pdf
It appears to me from the examples posted, that X Film 320 Pro has some similarities to those films - at least with respect to the need to sacrifice some shadow detail in order to have the results look good. That probably means as well that there are at least some similarities to Tri-X 320, the relatively special purpose, long toe ISO 320 version of Tri-X that was traditionally favoured by portrait photographers. I'm guessing that that film might be at least part of the inspiration for CatLabs' name for the product.
If X Film 320 Pro was accompanied by anything like that FAQ I'd have no issue with it.
If X Film 320 Pro was accompanied by anything like the descriptive information in that datasheet I'd have no issue with it.
I totally understand that CatLabs doesn't have anything approaching the technical resources of (either) Kodak available to it, and I have no problem with that fact. But the Exposure advice in that datasheet, and the FAQ Questions and Answers in the promotional section of the website are both helpful and informative. Surely at least some of that is available to Omer about the new film. I personally value "helpful and informative" when I make my purchasing decisions.
Is Omer saying that all those new film customers that approach things like this don't like "helpful and informative"? I've encountered a decent number of those new film users, and they (mostly) seem keen to find out things about what they buy. And of course, the nerdy folks who hang around here are certainly keen. Why not respond positively for requests for info?
 

mshchem

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Catlabs is a shop. OH is a great purveyor of everything photographic. I'm sure there's some sort of datasheet, but this is not necessary for the customer(s) that will be using this film. It looks like folks are getting pleasing results, price is attractive, brings a bit of competition to the market.
If I was interested in this sort of film, I would give it a shot. I'm not.
 

BrianShaw

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MattKing said:
I personally value "helpful and informative" when I make my purchasing decisions.
Is Omer saying that all those new film customers that approach things like this don't like "helpful and informative"?
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Gee whiz… the helpful and informative info on CatLabs website seems to give his customers, at least those who actually bought some film, enough helpful info to make photographs. Why might that be?
 

Tomro

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BrianShaw said:
Gee whiz… the helpful and informative info on CatLabs website seems to give his customers, at least those who actually bought some film, enough helpful info to make photographs. Why might that be?
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That’s like the lowest bar one can imagine. I can and did make photographs with a 50y old expired film. There‘s definitely something on the negatives, but for that not much information is needed, if at all.
 

BrianShaw

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Tomro said:
That’s like the lowest bar one can imagine. I can and did make photographs with a 50y old expired film. There‘s definitely something on the negatives, but for that not much information is needed, if at all.
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Yes, of course it’s a low bar. Sometimes that’s really all that is needed. Photography, as you must know, can be as simple or as complicated as one wants to make it. The proof is in the end-product - having a photograph to show sure beats having nothing but lip service about why a photograph could not be made.
 

Alex Benjamin

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MattKing said:
Is Omer saying that all those new film customers that approach things like this don't like "helpful and informative"?
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Some musicians, conductors especially, can open the score of an orchestral piece and pretty much hear it in their head. Takes years of training, of course, but it's also made possible through special talent. Others aren't build that way. They need the instrument to get the idea of "how it sounds" and what to do with it.

I'm of the second batch: without a piano on which to put my hands there is no music. But I understand, and envy, the others.

Same with photography. To me, characteristic curves and other graphs aren't "helpful and informative," they are "unhelpful and confusing." They tell me nothing about what the film will look like, but that's because my photographic brain just ain't wired that way, and wasn't trained that way. But I do understand, and envy, those for whom they represent a direct link between the brain and the eye. I rely on direct experience—the piano as the camera.

End result, of course, is the same: a photograph. Some good, some bad, either way.

CatLabs should indeed be mindful of both types, and both needs.
 

Huss

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Some like to go out and take photos. Others like to argue why they cannot.
 

faberryman

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So now it is a virtue to buy a can of Big K Cola OH! instead of a Coke. Talk about a low bar. Aristotle is turning over in his grave.
 

BrianShaw

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faberryman said:
So now it is a virtue to buy a can of Big K Cola OH! instead of a Coke. Talk about a low bar. Aristotle is turning over in his grave.
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LOL… not necessarily a “virtue” but it would be a CHOICE. Aristotle (and most everyone else) can freely chose which cola they drink and which film they use.
 

faberryman

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BrianShaw said:
LOL… not necessarily a “virtue” but it would be a CHOICE. Aristotle (and most everyone else) can freely chose which cola they drink and which film they use.
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Now you are coming back to earth. Even the curmudgeons would agree with that statement. Now we just need to see if we can talk Huss down.
 
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BrianShaw

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faberryman said:
Now you are coming back to earth.
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I never left Earth, madame. It’s the folks who think they can dictate what a manufacturer/vendor does or doesn’t do who have abandoned reality. We all cal chose to buy or not buy and harping repeatedly about why one doesn’t want to buy tends to look both curmudgeonly and retaliatory. Sad.
 

faberryman

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Harping about people harping isn't a good look either, as I just demonstrated. As Matt would say: QED.
 

BrianShaw

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BTW, having a “wish list” is okay but getting angry frustrated and demanding and whining about not getting your way could be perceived as immature.

Here’s my wish list:

- full documentation of the 120 backing paper, including dimensional specifications, compliance with ISO standards, and measured drawing of the labeling/numbering imprints.

- same documentation for the seal tab, plus clear identification of its adhesive type.

- same documentation for the 120 spool, less labeling and adhesive information.

- a rational explanation for not also offering 620 spool. After all, it’s the same film and backing paper, plus the spools can easily be printed, plus there are innumerable vintage camera users.
 
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Huss

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Superior results? That depends on what you want the end result to be.

If FP4 gives you the results YOU want for YOUR image, then that is the correct choice.
If CatLabs gives the results YOU want for YOUR image, then that is the correct choice.

Why is this so hard to understand? The crusty old curmudgeons here demand, as always, that their way is the only way. Which explains why the demographics on photrio are so skewed to the elderly.
 

BrianShaw

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faberryman said:
Harping about people harping isn't a good look either, as I just demonstrated. As Matt would say: QED.
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May I introduce you to my mentor:

faberryman said:
Based on CatLABS "marketing" in this thread, I have no interest in the new film.
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Nitroplait said:
Good for you, and lucky that no one will twist your arm to make you buy it.
I can’t wait to hear about what other products you will not buy.
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faberryman said:
How much time have you got?
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Over and out…
 

faberryman

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What? You've waited 32 pages to bring those issues up?
 

faberryman

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Huss said:
Which explains why the demographics on photrio are so skewed to the elderly.
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My take on it is a significant number of the threads on the forum are about issues related to the darkroom, and most young film enthusiasts don't have darkrooms, so the forum is largely irrelevant. Really, how many young film enthusiasts are you going to engage with a discussion of whether stop bath or a water rinse is better? That and most young film enthusiasts don't have any idea what a forum is, not having cut their internet teeth on Compuserve and a dial-up modem.

Speaking of social media, I have asked a couple of times and no one has provided any links to extended discussions of CatLABS' new film on social media. Photrio is where it all seems to be happening. Maybe only the elderly are interested in it.
 
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