CatLABS X FILM 320 35mm has finally arrived

[MattKing]

Most of the products we buy in this modern world are made - in whole or in part - by someone different than the entity whose name is on them.

 

[BrianShaw]

Most of the products we buy in this modern world are made - in whole or in part - by someone different than the entity whose name is on them.

And most of those entities won’t divulge their sources or business relationships either. It’s part of their “secret sauce”.

 

[Henning Serger]

Henning, thanks for the information on who can make film and make emulsion I was simply trying to find out if this is a new emulsion and if so made by whom it is made. There may be genuine differences in CATLABS film which gives it a unique "edge" on other films at 320 I have also been informed that there is another 320 film besides Foma and CATLABS. That film is an Ars Imago film. So how many different 320 films do we have?
pentaxuser

Hello Pentaxuser,
concerning the "ISO 320/26°" topic: That says simply nothing really, because in general you could offer any "official" ISO 400/27° film like Tri-X, TMY-2, HP5+, Delta 400 etc. also as an ISO 320/26°, ISO 250/25° or ISO 200/24° film without problems.
Because the current ISO norm for BW negative film is a kind of compromise. Photographers are using different imaging chains to get the positives and final results: Some photographers are using pure condensor enlargers, some mixed systems (condensor with diffusion box), and some are using diffusor enlargers. Then we have those who are using scanners. And there are lots of different scanner types which are all delivering different results. Depending on the imaging chain you are using, you need different contrast / gradation and exposure / development to get the perfect results for your individual imaging chain. The ISO norm is considering that in the way of using a kind of compromise and 'mid-/average' value for sensitivity which works relatively good with most imaging chains. But it cannot offer perfect results for every technique. You have to adjust it by yourself for your individual perfect results.
For example if you are using the Zone system, and want good shadow detail, the sensitivity given by the ISO norm is in most cases too high. In Zone system terms the ISO norm is already a N+1 development. That is the reason why most experienced BW photographers, and especially those who evaluate the characteristic curve by measurements with a densitometer, are using lower sensitivities / speeds (about 1/3 to 1 stop lower dependent on the used developer) and adjusted development times for their BW film developer combinations.
Or in other words:
If you want good shadow detail and a very good tonality / characteristic curve with e.g. Tri-X you are using it with effective sensitivities in the EI 200/24° to 320/26° range, dependent on the developer you are using.
So exactly the same film which is offered as a ISO 400/27° film (based on ISO norm) by one company, may be offered by a different company as a ISO 320/26° or 250/25° film (based on more practical evaluations or the Zone system). Or simply based on using a different developer, because due to the ISO norm there are no restrictions concerning developers, you can use the developer you want. And concerning effective sensitivity and shadow detail it makes a significant difference whether you use e.g. Perceptol or DD-X (up to one stop difference).

Best regards,
Henning

 

[AgX]

concerning the "ISO 320/26°" topic: That says simply nothing really, because in general you could offer any "official" ISO 400/27° film like Tri-X, TMY-2, HP5+, Delta 400 etc. also as an ISO 320/26°, ISO 250/25° or ISO 200/24° film without problems.

A film offered as "ISO xyz" must comply regarding that sensitivity to the film sensitivity measured based on the ISO standard.

That such is not always handled this way, one can see at the case of Film Ferrania who admitted here at Apug not even to have done an ISO testing, and who tried to evade this by designating the respective film with an "ASA" designation arguing that such no longer having a legal implication.

 

[Henning Serger]

That’s fine, Henning, and I agree with you.
Actually, I have no problem if people underestimate small businesses. In the industry that I actually work in, underestimating small entities happens very often. I have seen 1-2 person companies grow, flourish, and unseat long-established incumbents on major contracts. Not just once or twice, but often. It is a characteristic of a healthy industry, which of course the film industry never was until very recently. The benefit always goes to the customer.

Hello Jason,
I agree with you concerning start-ups and their importance generally. It works in several fields.
But film production is extremely different, especially film production on an industrial scale (high(er) volume) and with high quality. Those photographers who were never involved in that and have never seen a film factory from the inside by themselves are often completely underestimating the difficulties and challenges of film and photo paper production. It is absolutely high-tech, both from the needed knowledge and expertise and the needed machinery.
That is the reason why we have not seen any 1-2 persons start-ups in film production getting bigger and evolving into an industrial film production. Let's have a look at our "new" film producers:
1. InovisCoat/Inovisproject: That are former Agfa chemists and engineers from Agfa in Leverkusen. And their machinery is also from the former Agfa Leverkusen plant, but downscaled a bit and modernized. Their building was built new. So de facto InovisCoat/Inovisproject is "Agfa continued", but under a new name and some kilometers away from the former location.
2. Film Ferrania: They are also not a kind of "new start-up", but chemists and engineers who have worked for decades in the former Ferrania plant. The two CEOs are not from former Ferrania, but both have experience in film business for years before they started the Film Ferrania project. And the machinery is also mainly from former Ferrania. So Film Ferrania is also a kind of "Ferrania continued", but adjusted to the new market. But even those who have worked for decades in film production have significant difficulties to restart production. Because it is so challenging to make a quality film product.
3. ADOX: From all of the newer players they are those who have been most similar to a real start-up, building something new "from scratch". Because an ADOX factory had not been existant for several decades. And ADOX CEO Mirko Böddecker started ADOX as a daugther company of Fotoimpex. But he successfully "collected" knowledge, experts (engineers, chemists) and machinery from several former film factories which stopped production. And then started in a very tiny step-by-step process about a decade ago. Facing numerous huge problems. So in fact also ADOX is based to a significant extent on technology developed by former big film factories.
I know these three factories from the inside (and some others as well). I've been there and talked to the experts working there. I have an enormous respect for the excellent job all of them are doing. Running these operations is often "making miracles become reality". Because the hurdles in making film are really enormous.
Therefore we will not see that 1-2 person start-ups of today evolve into industrial film production factories of tomorrow. The entrance-hurdles are much too big.
But what we will see:
- existing film producers expanding their product portfolios, bringing back discontinued films and / or new designed emulsions
- existing film producers investing in new personal, R&D and machinery satisfying the increasing demand.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

A film offered as "ISO xyz" must comply regarding that sensitivity to the film sensitivity measured based on the ISO standard.

And as I have explained in my post, the manufacturer or film supplier is free in using the developer for the ISO tests. So if e.g. Kodak would use Microdol-X for the test of Tri-X, it would result in ISO 200/24°. And if a reseller of a certain film simply use a different developer for his ISO rating than the original manufacturer, he could also sell it with a different ISO value.
All that can be used to hide the origin of a re-labelled film as well.
ISO ratings of BW films are not "hammered in stone" or something sent by God......

Best regards,
Henning

 

[AgX]

Yes, the ISO standard itself is questionable. Especially when looking at its historical development.

 

[Henning Serger]

Hello Henning.
This is good news, I did not suspect the resurgence you suggest here. My question is, can you tell what percentage of this world-wide demand comes from China? I ask because my unsupported, unscientific view is— given China’s population, modernizing economy and growing interest in film a deep market “well” exists with the potential of surpassing the U.S. in the latter 20th century. Again, my own $0.02 worth, but I’m curious.

Hello Steve,
yes, you are on the right track concerning the future importance of the Chinese film market. I've just been there in China some weeks ago. Invited by the distributor for Ilford, Profoto and JOBO in China, and the founder of the Guanchen Photography Art Centre in Hangzhou. We did lectures and workshops there in Beijing and Hangzhou (by the way, you can find some pictures from the workshops here: https://www.facebook.com/JOBOanalog/), and I continued my market research there including talks to distributors, photo stores, labs, photo professors at the Universities and professional photographers.
The film revival is gaining strength in China. Film photography is becoming more popular. New high-quality labs are opened (I visited two of them). The film businesses there I talked to reported increase rates of 10% to 50% p.a. depending on product types. The online business infrastructure including the mail system in China is excellent. Partly even already better compared to the US and Europe. That helps film and camera distributors and especially labs a lot. China will definitely play a very important and positive role in the future of film photography.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[cmacd123]

A film offered as "ISO xyz" must comply regarding that sensitivity to the film sensitivity measured based on the ISO standard.

of course one can just say that they are providing an "Exposure index" None of the Kodak Motion Picture films have an official ISO speed for example.

 

[cmacd123]

the case of Film Ferrania who .. not even to have done an ISO testing,

P30 is a fresh coating of the formula of the P30 that the original Ferrannia made back before 3M cut back their focus.. t the time it was last sold, it was rated at 80ASA. SO that is what they are rating it at currently. The film that they sold last year was "alpha" - in other words experimental, grade so any specs should be taken as a starting point.

 

[jim appleyard]

I'd like to know who is coating it and if it's a new emulsion or a just a re-brand of something else.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

I'd like to know who is coating it.

I'd like to know tonight's winning lottery numbers.

 

[eddie]

If it’s being coated to CatLABS specifications ( as opposed to rebranding), I don’t think who’s doing the coating matters ( to me, anyway). Put two chefs in the same kitchen, with the same ingredients, you can end up with completely different meals.

 

[eddie]

I'd like to know tonight's winning lottery numbers.

6-17-24-41-64. The Powerball is 9.

 

[MattKing]

I'd like to know tonight's winning lottery numbers.

Ask me tomorrow - I'm sure I'll be able to help you then.

 

[pentaxuser]

If a company has the resources to commission a new emulsion that is in fact different from current emulsions in the market then I agree that to all intents and purposes it is a new film. The information I have gleaned so far does not make me by any means certain that this is a new emulsion but what now counts is: will the user consensus weigh on the side of it being a new emulsion that has demonstrable difference(s) from existing emulsions?. In the U.K. unfortunately it has to be significantly different for me to justify the price premium although from my information gathered here it looks as if it is competitive on price in the U.S.

I await users findings

pentaxuser

 

[eddie]

I was under the impression it was a new emulsion (don't know why- I can't find where I read catLABS statement claiming it's unique to them). I was giving them thew benefit of the doubt based on that belief.

 

[pentaxuser]

Yes, my problem, eddie, is that locals to CATLABS in New Jersey seem to indicate it is not really in the the film production game based on its premises and staff size but it has produced two new films in recent times. I have no idea what it costs to have the knowledgeable staff needed to commission a new emulsion nor the cost involved in the commission but unless it is cheaper than I imagine it just seems a very large outlay and gamble for a non film company.

However we can only await the experience of sufficient users to be able to draw any conclusions or better still serious testing by such people as Henning Serger

pentaxuser

 

[jim appleyard]

Post #25 indicates this may be Shanghai film. https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/issues-with-the-new-catlabs-x-80-film.167589/

 

[BrianShaw]

Yes, my problem, eddie, is that locals to CATLABS in New Jersey seem to indicate it is not really in the the film production game based on its premises and staff size but it has produced two new films in recent times. I have no idea what it costs to have the knowledgeable staff needed to commission a new emulsion nor the cost involved in the commission but unless it is cheaper than I imagine it just seems a very large outlay and gamble for a non film company.

However we can only await the experience of sufficient users to be able to draw any conclusions or better still serious testing by such people as Henning Serger

pentaxuser

Massachusetts.

I bought some 4x5 with all good intentions... and then life intervened and it will be a while before I get to it. Maybe I should buy some smaller format.

How about you?

 

[pentaxuser]

Post #25 indicates this may be Shanghai film. https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/issues-with-the-new-catlabs-x-80-film.167589/

I will need to re-look at this thread but my impression was that I had difficulty making sense of why the CATLABS fiilm had a Shanghai gummed label on it I think this is the kind used when reaching the end of the film to ensure it remains tightly rolled.

It all seemed very strange to put it mildly

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

I will need to re-look at this thread but my impression was that I had difficulty making sense of why the CATLABS fiilm had a Shanghai gummed label on it I think this is the kind used when reaching the end of the film to ensure it remains tightly rolled.

It all seemed very strange to put it mildly

pentaxuser

For some films coming from smaller sources, the tasks of making the film stock is sourced separately from the task of "confectioning" the film - edge numbering, spooling, attaching backing paper, packaging, in some cases slitting and cutting sprocket holes.
The film could easily be coated by InovisCoat or Harman, and then confectioned by Shanghai.
It is like car parts really - different parts come from different sources.

 

[cmacd123]

For some films coming from smaller sources, tand then confectioned by Shanghai.
.

And I don't think anyone not in the photo business in China has any idea of what capabilities there are there. we have only seen Shanghai, Lucky and ERA film here in the west. The current Shanghai operation is claimed to be a reorganization of the one that made the original GP3. industry in general in China is not as open about sources of supply than we are used to in the west. CatLabs may very well be dealing with a broker, who has made arrangements to cause the product to magicaly appear.

 

[bascom49]

I'd like to know who is coating it and if it's a new emulsion or a just a re-brand of something else.

I’d like to know what people think about it after shooting it while I’m waiting for my CatLabs Film stock to arrive.

 

[jim appleyard]

I’d like to know what people think about it after shooting it while I’m waiting for my CatLabs Film stock to arrive.

Generally people like it, if they can get past the quality control issues, which may have happened. https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/issues-with-the-new-catlabs-x-80-film.167589/. IIRC, the OP likes the images, just not the taping job, but Cat Labs has apparently made good.