Caffenol chemicals?

[titrisol]

It is. Caffenol is a relatively expensive developer and I wonder if an LCA would support the eco-friendliness often attributed to it.

Eco friendly? It was never the point

 

[koraks]

It's touted as such by many, though.

 

[AntonKL]

the controls are not very predictable

The pH can vary a lot depending on how exactly you mix it, if you dissolve the soda first, the CO2 formed during neutralization will make bicarbonate with the excess soda. If you dissolve the vitamin C first and slowly add the soda, the CO2 escapes and the final pH will be higher, especially if you use just a small amount of water for mixing and then fill up to the final volume.
You can avoid this entirely by using sodium ascorbate in place of AA, but then the pH might even end up too high.

 

[Greg_E2]

So the order to mix things is also important, not just the amounts of each?

I often see the coffee and the soda mixed together, then the vitamin C added to this, is this correct or should we really be splitting the water into thirds, dissolving each, then mix coffee with soda, then with vitamin C? Or a different order altogether?

 

[fs999]

It is. Caffenol is a relatively expensive developer and I wonder if an LCA would support the eco-friendliness often attributed to it.

At 17 € per 1Kg is not very expensive...

 

[fs999]

So the order to mix things is also important, not just the amounts of each?

I often see the coffee and the soda mixed together, then the vitamin C added to this, is this correct or should we really be splitting the water into thirds, dissolving each, then mix coffee with soda, then with vitamin C? Or a different order altogether?

I dissolve in hot water first the soda, vitamin C with Kbr as second and mix them together. Then with tap water dissolve the coffee and mix all together.

 

[koraks]

At 17 € per 1Kg is not very expensive...

One liter of caffenol is around €1.50 if I shop around in regular consumer channels. If I do the same for, let's say, pyrocat 1+1+100, it's around €0.15. That's 1/10 the cost. Store-bought Adonal/Rodinal is around €0.30 for 1l at 1+100.

I'm not so much talking about financial cost, but the bulk of stuff that goes into it. This comes at a cost, too. The material needs to be synthesized from feedstocks, purified, packaged, transported etc.

What's the point of caffenol, really? It's not particularly cheap. It's most likely not particularly environmentally friendly when compared to functionally similar alternatives. It stinks to high heaven and has a tendency to stain the emulsion (but not an image-wise stain that might be desirable). It's slow. It's unpredictable/non-standardized unless you ensure that you get the exact same coffee and the manufacturer doesn't change something about that product. It takes up more shelf space than alternatives. It needs to be mixed at time of use from dry ingredients and it's not possible to make some kind of concentrate that can be stored. And it has no image properties that are particularly unique or desirable.

Really the only thing I can see it has going for it is that there's a novelty/fun factor to it, and technically speaking, it gets the job done. Evidently, it's not my cup of coffee; I see why people would try it once or twice for the "hey, neat"-experience. But it's beyond me why people would stick with it. What's the point in using a product that's not particularly good at its job, is relatively expensive and comes with a couple of downsides in practical use?

 

[titrisol]

So the order to mix things is also important, not just the amounts of each?

I often see the coffee and the soda mixed together, then the vitamin C added to this, is this correct or should we really be splitting the water into thirds, dissolving each, then mix coffee with soda, then with vitamin C? Or a different order altogether?

Yes, like with every recipe, the order of addition is very important as that affects how the different chemicals interact with each other and finally with the material.
In general you have to dissolve the carbonate first, then the vitamin C (to allow time to react as ascorbate), calculation of how much carbonate is needed to neutralize the ascorbic acid should be in the consideration; then any other solubles, and the coffee at the end

I wish PE was around to explain this in more technical terms, even though he'd tell us to go and read Haist.
Donald Qualls might also chime in.... here are his recipes

 

[npl]

One liter of caffenol is around €1.50 if I shop around in regular consumer channels. If I do the same for, let's say, pyrocat 1+1+100, it's around €0.15. That's 1/10 the cost. Store-bought Adonal/Rodinal is around €0.30 for 1l at 1+100.

I'm not so much talking about financial cost, but the bulk of stuff that goes into it. This comes at a cost, too. The material needs to be synthesized from feedstocks, purified, packaged, transported etc.

What's the point of caffenol, really? It's not particularly cheap. It's most likely not particularly environmentally friendly when compared to functionally similar alternatives. It stinks to high heaven and has a tendency to stain the emulsion (but not an image-wise stain that might be desirable). It's slow. It's unpredictable/non-standardized unless you ensure that you get the exact same coffee and the manufacturer doesn't change something about that product. It takes up more shelf space than alternatives. It needs to be mixed at time of use from dry ingredients and it's not possible to make some kind of concentrate that can be stored. And it has no image properties that are particularly unique or desirable.

Really the only thing I can see it has going for it is that there's a novelty/fun factor to it, and technically speaking, it gets the job done. Evidently, it's not my cup of coffee; I see why people would try it once or twice for the "hey, neat"-experience. But it's beyond me why people would stick with it. What's the point in using a product that's not particularly good at its job, is relatively expensive and comes with a couple of downsides in practical use?

There's IMO two interesting things about caffenol, beyond being a fun experiment.

It's original point was to be a developper you can make with stuff that can be found in local markets. It's kinda true : instant coffee, sodium carbonate, salt are easely found. The only uncommon thing is ascorbic acid altought you can find it in some stores or can use vitamin C tablets from the pharmacy (bit of a waste IMO). If you can't ship photochemicals where you live, that's one option.

At the end of the day, caffenol is a general-purpose one shot developer with low toxicity, that isn't fine-grained like D76 or XTOL. It can have it's place in a darkroom. As an example, I don't print big and sometimes find that XTOL (XT-3 now) or even HC-110 work a little too well on solving the grain. For somes cases, caffenol was the solution for grittier prints.

It can be standardized. Pure ascorbic acid, anydhrous sodium carbonate, iodised salt and one of these Instant coffee brand that have been around forever. Always mix in the same order, check the PH to be extra-sure .. and you're good

 

[koraks]

Thanks; yeah, especially the ingredient availability I can understand to be a factor. If those for whom this is relevant also can locate a store that sells some sodium thiosulfate for use in swimming pools, they can process B&W film and paper without having access to photochemistry per se.

My remarks were mainly intended to help people approach the decision with a critical attitude. If they're trying to minimize cost or optimize ecofriendliness, I feel they should have a rational look at it instead of accepting common lore too readily. Whether such minimization/optimization in this particular area is such a relevant theme to begin with...well, that's a whole different story.

I still believe that the vast majority of caffenol users are in it for the fun factor and probably the satisfaction of the McGyver-like approach. Mind you, I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all.

 

[Reginald S]

I still believe that the vast majority of caffenol users are in it for the fun factor and probably the satisfaction of the McGyver-like approach.

I'm not sure. Once have heard one of the Mc Gyver clones, Reinhold (imagesfrugales), saying this:

""That's not a game, I am not modest this time, that's state of the art!"

Caffenol

<b>Dedicated to the power of Caffenol and Caffenol-C film developer made of: <br><br>instant coffee, washing soda and vitamin-C.<br><br>Competes with the best developers available <br> <br> This developer deserves more attention. <br> <br> Time for a cup of coffee....</b> <br> <br> Ifyou are new...

caffenol.blogspot.com

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[koraks]

Oh, I'm a romantic just like the next coffee-soda guy. It just manifests in different areas.