C-42 is Kodak's home-version of C-41?

[mohmad khatab]

About bleach and fixer recipes: there are recipe for both published in US patent US6649331. Tables 3 and 4 give formulas for very powerful versions and are not exactly cheap, but at least the bleach processes a lot more rolls per liter than C-41 CD. If you want to create cheaper solutions with equal capacity, you could:

1. Mix any of the C-41 formulas. There really is not much wiggle room, these are all very similar in composition and capacity, which is 10-15 rolls per liter.
   
2. Mix bleach following the formula from US6649331 Table 3, but dilute it 1+2 or even 1+3 with water, then bring back to pH 4.2 - 4.5. Use the dilute bleach for 6-8 minutesl.
   
3. Follow Ryuji Suzuki's Neutral Rapid Fixer, ideal pH target for C-41 fixer would be 6.5. For some extra performance you can also use Ron Mowrey's Superfix. Use these fixers for 4-5 minutes. Although clearing time with both is much, much shorter, there are very insoluble silver salts created during C-41 development, and fixers take longer than twice clearing time to remove these.
   
4. Don't forget a final rinse! It's important to keep the film long term stable.

Dear brother ,,
I got most of the raw materials.
But I could not get CD4
I have no way to prepare CD4
But I managed to get CD3
Can I use CD3 instead of CD4?
Will there be any change in the weight or pH of this (if this is allowed in the first place)?
God bless you .
I apologize for my intrusion.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Do not use CD3 for the C41/C42 process.

PE

 

[mohmad khatab]

Do not use CD3 for the C41/C42 process.

PE

Well, God bless you.
Are there any alternative ideas?
- What are the steps to prepare CD4 from scratch?
The equation exists but is not enough, I could not understand how to apply that equation?
What are the conditions for applying and equipping this equation?

4-AMIN0-3 - METHYL-N-ETHYL - N- (BETA-HYDROXYETHYL)
ANILINE SULFATE

- I have a chemist friend specializing in private chemistry and is currently doing graduate studies in special chemistry and industrial chemistry, but he told me that that equation must be available with the method of preparation.

 

[Rudeofus]

It would be exceedingly costly to synthesize CD-4 in small scale. I highly recommend you get it from an outside source which ships to Egypt, such as Fototechnik Suvatlar from Germany.

 

[mohmad khatab]

It would be exceedingly costly to synthesize CD-4 in small scale. I highly recommend you get it from an outside source which ships to Egypt, such as Fototechnik Suvatlar from Germany.

Regrettably, the Egyptian government has now tightened its grip on online purchases and has enacted new laws requiring that a person must have a bank account of at least a large amount and must have an account in foreign currency.
It is not allowed to buy for those who do not have an account in foreign currencies.
The story has become very complicated in the dire economic situation of the country.
- I do not know what to really do.
- If there are no solutions to produce CD-4 locally?
God is the helper

 

[Photo Engineer]

As Rudi said, CD4 is very difficult to make, especially in small batches.

And, there is no substitute.

PE

 

[Martin Rickards]

Well, God bless you.
Are there any alternative ideas?
- What are the steps to prepare CD4 from scratch?
The equation exists but is not enough, I could not understand how to apply that equation?
What are the conditions for applying and equipping this equation?

4-AMIN0-3 - METHYL-N-ETHYL - N- (BETA-HYDROXYETHYL)
ANILINE SULFATE

- I have a chemist friend specializing in private chemistry and is currently doing graduate studies in special chemistry and industrial chemistry, but he told me that that equation must be available with the method of preparation.

This may be of interest to your chemist friend.

 

[Photo Engineer]

That page is restricted.

PE

 

[Rudeofus]

This patent (US5475140) claims a procedure to make CD-4. I am not sure, whether the raw ingredients are available from Egyptian sources. If something has to be imported, it may be easier to find a way of importing CD-4.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Rudi, those chemicals and procedures are quite dangerous and some are quite toxic. I would not suggest that an amateur try this.

PE

 

[mohmad khatab]

Rudi, those chemicals and procedures are quite dangerous and some are quite toxic. I would not suggest that an amateur try this.

PE

In fact, you are a good and respected people.
I'm really proud of you all.
You really are wonderful men, you are humanly sympathetic to me and I am very happy.
Whether we succeeded in producing that article or failed, in any case I owe you much. God bless you all .
Technical question
Is this bleach still effective today if it is used?
What is meant by (not iodized)
Sodium chloride is available in powder form. How do I convert it to a liquid (not iodized)

Tab Water 120-130F 600 ml
Copper sulfate pentahydrate ..............100 g
Sodium chloride (not iodized) ..........100 ml
Water to make 1 liter
bleach 7:15 min @ 75 F
stop film & rinse before and following bleach is recommended

 

[Rudeofus]

This is a bleach which likely works, but one that was not formulated for C-41 process. It may be too strong and may kill some ancient C-41 emulsions, but most modern color negative films will likely be properly bleached by it.

About the "Sodium chloride (not iodized) .... 100ml": most likely that's a printing error and 100 g of that compound are meant. Normal table salt you buy for food&cooking contains some intentionally added iodide in order to prevent some ailments coming from insufficient iodide in our nutrition. If you use iodited table salt for making this bleach, you will form Silver Chloride and some amount of Silver Iodide. In black&white processing this may be an issue (that's why the formula wants non-iodized Sodium Chloride), whereas for your C-41 bleach it really doesn't matter.

PS: lots of C-41 home brewers use a very simple bleach made from Potassium Ferricyanide and Potassium Bromide, both of which used in amounts of 10-30 g/l. C-41 film is not rated for this bleach either, but since so many home brewers use it anyway with no ill effect, there's a very high likelihood it will work for you, too. The Copper Sulfate bleach, on the other hand, hasn't been used by many so far, so you may be on your own with this one. The ingredients for Ferricyanide bleach should be much easier to get than those for Ammonium Ferric EDTA or Ammonium Ferric PDTA type bleaches.

 

[mohmad khatab]

This is a bleach which likely works, but one that was not formulated for C-41 process. It may be too strong and may kill some ancient C-41 emulsions, but most modern color negative films will likely be properly bleached by it.

About the "Sodium chloride (not iodized) .... 100ml": most likely that's a printing error and 100 g of that compound are meant. Normal table salt you buy for food&cooking contains some intentionally added iodide in order to prevent some ailments coming from insufficient iodide in our nutrition. If you use iodited table salt for making this bleach, you will form Silver Chloride and some amount of Silver Iodide. In black&white processing this may be an issue (that's why the formula wants non-iodized Sodium Chloride), whereas for your C-41 bleach it really doesn't matter.

PS: lots of C-41 home brewers use a very simple bleach made from Potassium Ferricyanide and Potassium Bromide, both of which used in amounts of 10-30 g/l. C-41 film is not rated for this bleach either, but since so many home brewers use it anyway with no ill effect, there's a very high likelihood it will work for you, too. The Copper Sulfate bleach, on the other hand, hasn't been used by many so far, so you may be on your own with this one. The ingredients for Ferricyanide bleach should be much easier to get than those for Ammonium Ferric EDTA or Ammonium Ferric PDTA type bleaches.

God bless you, my dear brother ,,
Thank you for your response, full of great information.
In fact, I brought that recipe from the files attached to the forum and it is actually considered the oldest prescription to be written before it (believe it or not) that this recipe is still working efficiently as long as it was used (solution of stopping and washing) before and after bleaching.
What prompted me to think about that formula is the ease of getting it.
As for Ferricyanide, the dealer told me that he was not authorized to sell it to ordinary citizens unless they had a laboratory with a legal license, and of course that dilemma needed some time,
And for Ammonium Ferric PDTA. , The dealer told me that the quality he currently has is not very clean, so maybe it will be useless.
In fact I am really puzzled by the issue of this typo,
I will attach the photo of the document until you tell me your opinion.
God bless you

 

[koraks]

FYI: I have not tried this copper bleach with color materials, but have used copper-based bleaches with both collodion negatives and paper. I find that copper bleaches sometimes give unexpected problems with partial bleaching and solarization effects. It may and should work well in theory, but be ware of unanticipated problems.
As a sidenote: I wonder if the use of sodium chloride could slow down bleaching and if eg potassium bromide would make a better alternative to it.

 

[Rudeofus]

@mohmad khatab : if you are unable to get a chemical compound as simple and non-hazardous as Potassium Ferricyanide, how can you get the other ingredients for C-41 color developer? Stuff like Hydroxylamine Sulfate or whatever precursors you need for making CD-4 ?

Is there a chance you confused Potassium Ferricyanide with Potassium Cyanide, which is a completely different compound? Potassium Ferricyanide, the compound you want, has the chemical formula K3Fe(CN)6 and CAS number 13746-66-2.

 

[mohmad khatab]

FYI: I have not tried this copper bleach with color materials, but have used copper-based bleaches with both collodion negatives and paper. I find that copper bleaches sometimes give unexpected problems with partial bleaching and solarization effects. It may and should work well in theory, but be ware of unanticipated problems.
As a sidenote: I wonder if the use of sodium chloride could slow down bleaching and if eg potassium bromide would make a better alternative to it.

Yes, your point of view is logical.
Your fears about using copper are logical and justified, I agree with you perfectly.
But I think the password to use copper in a safe way is safe in 3 points as I expected:
First: Do not underestimate PH settings very accurately. And adherence to temperature and bleaching time.
Second: strict adherence to the work of stop bath before and after bath bleach.
Third: Obligation to wash for a period of not less than two minutes after each stop bath.
The reason my support for this bleach is that it is very cheap and can live long without damage.
- Generally after two days I will show you the results of this bleach.

 

[mohmad khatab]

@mohmad khatab : if you are unable to get a chemical compound as simple and non-hazardous as Potassium Ferricyanide, how can you get the other ingredients for C-41 color developer? Stuff like Hydroxylamine Sulfate or whatever precursors you need for making CD-4 ?

Is there a chance you confused Potassium Ferricyanide with Potassium Cyanide, which is a completely different compound? Potassium Ferricyanide, the compound you want, has the chemical formula K3Fe(CN)6 and CAS number 13746-66-2.

I apologize I read the name of the article in a sinful manner in the past.
I went today to the chemical market - and already Potassium Ferricyanide is available for sale but the trader told me it was from China's production and promised to bring quality from Russia in a week.
- Today I bought 29 chemicals including CD3
And you will be surprised when you know the prices you got in general and will be very surprised when you know that 250 grams of CD3 was $ 4.5. German industry.
- With respect to CD4 I have reached a semi-agreement with the trader to import half a kilo gram specifically for me, but unfortunately the price will be twice the price of CD3 (approximately).
- I have all my money and I do not need to buy
Potassium Bromide & HAS & Ammonium thiosulfate
3 items are available only in half-kilo packs so they are very expensive I could not buy now - but I am determined to make money and go back to buy these raw materials as well as Potassium Ferricyanide.

 

[Rudeofus]

Since it may take some time for you to get all the correct ingredients for C-41 processing, you could do some experiments in the mean time, so that you are fully up and running once the CD-4 arrives:

1. Mix a small batch of C-41 CD with CD-3, use it at 40°C instead of 38°C and, for starters, for 4 minutes instead of 3:15. While this will give you imperfect results, you should be able to scan&correct these pics on your computer without problems. And you get to practice with keeping the developer temperature stable during the process.
   
2. Try to establish good bleaching process parameters. Take an old&expired roll, expose it to sunlight and develop it in regular B&W developer (not color developer! ). It should be completely black&opaque after B&W development. Try then to bleach and fix small film clips. Compare density of these test clips against test clips which you did not develop and fixed right away. Compare different bleach bath concentrations and times.
3. Since the bleach is not time critical, you should be able to get started with the cheap&dirty version of Potassium Ferricyanide from China. Maybe filter the bleach before using it.

Good luck with your experiments! Let us know how you come along!

 

[mohmad khatab]

Since it may take some time for you to get all the correct ingredients for C-41 processing, you could do some experiments in the mean time, so that you are fully up and running once the CD-4 arrives:

1. Mix a small batch of C-41 CD with CD-3, use it at 40°C instead of 38°C and, for starters, for 4 minutes instead of 3:15. While this will give you imperfect results, you should be able to scan&correct these pics on your computer without problems. And you get to practice with keeping the developer temperature stable during the process.
   
2. Try to establish good bleaching process parameters. Take an old&expired roll, expose it to sunlight and develop it in regular B&W developer (not color developer! ). It should be completely black&opaque after B&W development. Try then to bleach and fix small film clips. Compare density of these test clips against test clips which you did not develop and fixed right away. Compare different bleach bath concentrations and times.
3. Since the bleach is not time critical, you should be able to get started with the cheap&dirty version of Potassium Ferricyanide from China. Maybe filter the bleach before using it.

Good luck with your experiments! Let us know how you come along!

God bless you my dear brother.
I thank you for your support and sympathy.
Yes, your words are 100% true - I will take your advice into consideration.
You are right, getting all the necessary chemicals is an issue you need more time.
- I am now concerned with the issue of classification - Put the chemicals in sealed boxes and write the name of each item on the packaging in English, is a very complex and sensitive, as the Egyptian trader sells you copper sulfate in a plastic bag and written on the name in Arabic, So the rest of the material, so I had to arrange the packages and organized in a controlled manner so easy to obtain any material accurately.
God bless you my dear brother

 

[RPC]

Remember that like the copper bleach, when using a ferricyanide bleach for C-41, after the developer and before the bleach you must use a clearing stop bath followed by a wash to prevent oxidation of the developer by the bleach which would result in stained images (this is not required for the standard bleach). Use a 2% acetic acid stop bath with 10 grams per liter of sodium sulfite mixed in for the clearing bath, followed by the wash.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Also remember that CD3 will work poorly with C41 films.

PE

 

[mohmad khatab]

Remember that like the copper bleach, when using a ferricyanide bleach for C-41, after the developer and before the bleach you must use a clearing stop bath followed by a wash to prevent oxidation of the developer by the bleach which would result in stained images (this is not required for the standard bleach). Use a 2% acetic acid stop bath with 10 grams per liter of sodium sulfite mixed in for the clearing bath, followed by the wash.

Yes sir, God bless you.
I know that stopping Bath is one of the most important steps in addition to rinsing for two minutes, that is before and after bleaching copper,
The problem is that it is difficult to obtain iodized salt for the installation of this copper bleach.
I went to all the groceries, the big markets and all the products of table salt with .05% of the iodine. I have not found any iodine-free food salt yet.
Search is ongoing.
- Thank you for your sympathy with me, God bless you.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Also remember that CD3 will work poorly with C41 films.

PE

Welcome to the distinguished sir.
- I am very grateful for your precious advice, God bless you.
Negotiations are underway with a chemical importer to import specific CD4 for me, but this is a long-term process that may take several months or more and will require a substantial amount of money. The minimum order is not less than half a kilo.
- Meanwhile, my Ukrainian friend told me / Vova Matveev
And he told me that it is no harm to try CD3 replacement instead of CD4 according to the principle that you set yourself and the picture attached,
- One of my colleagues also told me to follow the same path (as long as needed) taking into account increasing the process temperature to 40 degrees and increasing the working time to 4 minutes instead of 3:15.
- Overall, I will try to try this experience in the coming days as soon as I have completed the rest of the material I need, I am currently waiting to get (HAS)
The issue is only a matter of time.

 

[Photo Engineer]

CD4 is very polar, but CD3 is quite non-polar by comparison and thus most CD3 developers in the past have used Benzyl Alcohol or a high pH to get the proper dye formation. I would thus suspect that the use of CD3 will give low contrast and saturation.

PE

 

[Rudeofus]

CD-3 works without Benzyl Alcohol and at moderate pH for ECN-2 process. Since ECN-2 film stock can be cross processed in C-41 CD (give or take a few color oddities), I would assume the opposite direction would work as well, as long as the somewhat lower activity of CD-3 is taken into account.