BW reversal options

[Steve Roberts]

Hi All,
Well, I shot a second film at the weekend and reversal processed it last night. As per my earlier post, I went for broke and shot FP4 at 25ASA. I didn't bother with any bracketing (usually when I make exposure changes in the camera I either don't write down what I've done and promptly forget it or if I do write down my variations, I inevitably lose the piece of paper).
For the first developer, I decided to up the ante considerably, so that was Rodinal, 1 + 25, 20 degs C for 11 mins. Everything else was the same, except that I've invested in a new balance that reads grammes to two dp's, so hopefully more accurate. Weighing out the chemicals (0.8g KMnO4 and 11g Sodium Bisulphate) then adding the required 400cc of water for my tank seemed to work fine. As I mentioned before, I don't like having to store gallons of stock solutions. One word of warning for those who aren't familiar with Potassium Permanganate - don't wear any good clothes, as a single grain of the stuff will leave a brown blob for ever.
The results were pretty encouraging, if a little surprising. The first half of the film was taken in fairly overcast conditions, and I wasn't expecting very much from those shots. The second half was shot in bright sunshine and I was confident that those would be the better ones. It turned out to be the other way around. The overcast shots all turned out remarkably well, whilst the sunshine shots were all rather dark. i.e. underexposed. I wondered whether with the shorter exposures (typically 1/125th) of the sunny day I might be running into some kind of reciprocity issue when rating FP4 at 25ASA? (The overcast shots were typically at 1/15th to 1/30th). Alternatively, it could be that the meter of the camera I was using (Spotmatic) is on the blink and not as linear as it should be. I shall have to compare it to another. The only other slight issue was uneven development apparent in the sky areas that seems related to the perforations. Perhaps continuous agitation in the first development might solve this?
All comments and criticisms are welcome, as the results of about a third of my 30 shots are very encouraging. With colour reversal materials seemingly being chopped on a monthly basis, it could be that this technique may one day become the last stand of us slide-takers!
Best wishes,
Steve

 

[holmburgers]

Sounds good Steve. Would it be possible to post any scans?

Last night I was going to do my RP, but found out that my deep-stainless-steel tanks have pinholes... argh! Luckily I discovered this with sodium sulfite and not potassium-dichromate+sulfuric acid. That could've made for an interesting cleanup...

I put some superglue on the pinholes after identifying them with a lightbulb in the tanks, but there are still some seams that appear to be leaking. I'm thinking about getting some of that gas-tank coating goo.. worked great on my 1971 Honda CB100, oughta be great on my SS tanks!

 

[Existing Light]

Hi All,
Well, I shot a second film at the weekend and reversal processed it last night. As per my earlier post, I went for broke and shot FP4 at 25ASA. I didn't bother with any bracketing (usually when I make exposure changes in the camera I either don't write down what I've done and promptly forget it or if I do write down my variations, I inevitably lose the piece of paper).
For the first developer, I decided to up the ante considerably, so that was Rodinal, 1 + 25, 20 degs C for 11 mins. Everything else was the same, except that I've invested in a new balance that reads grammes to two dp's, so hopefully more accurate. Weighing out the chemicals (0.8g KMnO4 and 11g Sodium Bisulphate) then adding the required 400cc of water for my tank seemed to work fine. As I mentioned before, I don't like having to store gallons of stock solutions. One word of warning for those who aren't familiar with Potassium Permanganate - don't wear any good clothes, as a single grain of the stuff will leave a brown blob for ever.
The results were pretty encouraging, if a little surprising. The first half of the film was taken in fairly overcast conditions, and I wasn't expecting very much from those shots. The second half was shot in bright sunshine and I was confident that those would be the better ones. It turned out to be the other way around. The overcast shots all turned out remarkably well, whilst the sunshine shots were all rather dark. i.e. underexposed. I wondered whether with the shorter exposures (typically 1/125th) of the sunny day I might be running into some kind of reciprocity issue when rating FP4 at 25ASA? (The overcast shots were typically at 1/15th to 1/30th). Alternatively, it could be that the meter of the camera I was using (Spotmatic) is on the blink and not as linear as it should be. I shall have to compare it to another. The only other slight issue was uneven development apparent in the sky areas that seems related to the perforations. Perhaps continuous agitation in the first development might solve this?
All comments and criticisms are welcome, as the results of about a third of my 30 shots are very encouraging. With colour reversal materials seemingly being chopped on a monthly basis, it could be that this technique may one day become the last stand of us slide-takers!
Best wishes,
Steve

I learned after staining my sink with potassium permanganate that the clearing bath clears that right up. I'm not sure if it'll work with clothing or not

I do continuous agitation; I've never had any problem with uneven development.

I use a handheld meter when shooting slides most of the time, and my slides generally come out exposed fairly well except for a half a roll that I shot in the snow. It came out with the highlights blown out. I think that might be more of a development problem. I couldnt adjust the development because I shot half the roll under "normal" conditions and didnt want those shots underdeveloped :/

 

[holmburgers]

Reversal Processing Success

Howdy yo!

Last night, I had some gratifying success with RP.

Here was my basic procedure...

1. Dektol 2:1 + 5grams HYPO/L - 12 minutes, typical to high agitation.

2. Ilford Wash Sequence (5 changes w/ agitation, or thereabouts)

3. 2-part bleach mixed right before use - 5 minutes, high agitation
a) 1.4% Potassium Dichromate (0.7% in final solution)
b) 4% solution 48% Sulfuric Acid (for a total of 1% concentrated sulfuric acid in final solution)

4. Ilford Wash Sequence

5. 10% Sodium Sulfite - ≈4 minutes (don't honestly remember)

6. Ilford Wash Sequence

7. Light exposure - unscientific, just inspected it under a 40 watt tungsten bulb and tried to shine as much light on it as I could for maybe 3 minutes or so.

8. HC-110 dil. B - 7 minutes

9. Ilford Wash Sequence

10. Kodak Fixer - about 4 minutes (shorter than average)

11. Final Wash, 15 minutes running water

I'll post some pictures when I get a chance, but I shot Tri-X 320 (all 4x5" by the way) at about ISO 200 with good results. Delta 100 seemed to do quite good at ISO 75 and was way overexposed by ISO 25.

For anyone who's never done reversal processing, the appearance of the film after the bleach and prior to the last dev is quite startling. It's this weird milky yellow, and the negative image is bleached away (clear parts) so you're looking at this very unique yellow positive image. Pretty cool!

My bleach solution, containing PD (a known carcinogen) was poured back into a large container, and then I poured the sodium sulfite solution into this, turning the whole thing from bright orange to dark green immediately. As I understand, this means it's neutralized? I then poured that down the sink with plenty of water... I hope that's kosher.

Anyways, that's my experience. I'm really curious about what controls are possible and at what point you affect them.

 

[Existing Light]

Howdy yo!

Last night, I had some gratifying success with RP.

Here was my basic procedure...

1. Dektol 2:1 + 5grams HYPO/L - 12 minutes, typical to high agitation.

2. Ilford Wash Sequence (5 changes w/ agitation, or thereabouts)

3. 2-part bleach mixed right before use - 5 minutes, high agitation
a) 1.4% Potassium Dichromate (0.7% in final solution)
b) 4% solution 48% Sulfuric Acid (for a total of 1% concentrated sulfuric acid in final solution)

4. Ilford Wash Sequence

5. 10% Sodium Sulfite - ≈4 minutes (don't honestly remember)

6. Ilford Wash Sequence

7. Light exposure - unscientific, just inspected it under a 40 watt tungsten bulb and tried to shine as much light on it as I could for maybe 3 minutes or so.

8. HC-110 dil. B - 7 minutes

9. Ilford Wash Sequence

10. Kodak Fixer - about 4 minutes (shorter than average)

11. Final Wash, 15 minutes running water

I'll post some pictures when I get a chance, but I shot Tri-X 320 (all 4x5" by the way) at about ISO 200 with good results. Delta 100 seemed to do quite good at ISO 75 and was way overexposed by ISO 25.

For anyone who's never done reversal processing, the appearance of the film after the bleach and prior to the last dev is quite startling. It's this weird milky yellow, and the negative image is bleached away (clear parts) so you're looking at this very unique yellow positive image. Pretty cool!

My bleach solution, containing PD (a known carcinogen) was poured back into a large container, and then I poured the sodium sulfite solution into this, turning the whole thing from bright orange to dark green immediately. As I understand, this means it's neutralized? I then poured that down the sink with plenty of water... I hope that's kosher.

Anyways, that's my experience. I'm really curious about what controls are possible and at what point you affect them.

Glad to see it went well. Cant wait to see scans.

I found a roll of hp5 at the bottom of my camera bag, so I might give that a shot tonight since Tri-X seemed to work for you. (Ok, I know they're not the same, but hopefully they'll be similar enough to give equivalent results )

 

[holmburgers]

Ok, here we go...

The first two sheets were double exposed w/ two ISO's per sheet. That's why the subject is sitting in my dryer, because that's the only way I could get the surrounding area dark enough to do a good, clean double exposure and not fog the adjacent part of the film.

It was fun.

All were taken on a Raptar 135mm f/4.7 lens at 1/4th. In each case, I only adjusted the aperture to reflect the new ISO, metering the gray card as EV 9 in all cases.

TXP loses quite a bit of speed, but I guess no one considers it a true 320 ISO anyways (dr5 at least), and Delta holds its speed very well. Shooting at ISO 64 probably would've been perfect.

The next two pictures of the chair are on TXP320, and the lighter one was shot at ISO 64 and the darker at 200. The main glare area read about EV 6, exposed at EV 4

The plant was also TXP320 @ 200 ISO, leaves ranged from EV 4-5, exposed for EV4.

It's odd that in the tests, TXP @ 125 looks just right if not a little dark, whereas the chair and plant look great @ 200. I guess the latter two photos were pretty high key to begin with, and as I usually do, erred on overexposure.

All in all, very happy with the results!


p.s. I suppose that the tests in the dryer aren't ideal, in that changing the aperture may have had a lot to do with changes in contrast.

Ohh, and also, note the slightly warmish hue of TXP as opposed to the cold grey of Delta. Scanned in color, and no correction.

 

[Existing Light]

Ok, here we go...

The first two sheets were double exposed w/ two ISO's per sheet. That's why the subject is sitting in my dryer, because that's the only way I could get the surrounding area dark enough to do a good, clean double exposure and not fog the adjacent part of the film.

It was fun.

All were taken on a Raptar 135mm f/4.7 lens at 1/4th. In each case, I only adjusted the aperture to reflect the new ISO, metering the gray card as EV 9 in all cases.

TXP loses quite a bit of speed, but I guess no one considers it a true 320 ISO anyways (dr5 at least), and Delta holds its speed very well. Shooting at ISO 64 probably would've been perfect.

The next two pictures of the chair are on TXP320, and the lighter one was shot at ISO 64 and the darker at 200. The main glare area read about EV 6, exposed at EV 4

The plant was also TXP320 @ 200 ISO, leaves ranged from EV 4-5, exposed for EV4.

It's odd that in the tests, TXP @ 125 looks just right if not a little dark, whereas the chair and plant look great @ 200. I guess the latter two photos were pretty high key to begin with, and as I usually do, erred on overexposure.

All in all, very happy with the results!


p.s. I suppose that the tests in the dryer aren't ideal, in that changing the aperture may have had a lot to do with changes in contrast.

Ohh, and also, note the slightly warmish hue of TXP as opposed to the cold grey of Delta. Scanned in color, and no correction.

awesome, dude. I quite like the office chair picture, the one exposed at EI200 on TXP. You might make me convert to Kodak film if I dont get my HP5 to look how I want it

I did get around to burning through a roll of HP5 today. I've found that it does lose a good bit of speed (but then again, so does FP4, which I expose at 32). I think the HP5 seems to work best at around EI100 or 125 in my process. I think I might need some hypo for the highlights, though. They're a bit cloudy. I'd like the extra speed, but I'd hate to have to add one more chemical to my process... but I guess I could deal with the hassle if I need to

 

[holmburgers]

I can't say for sure of course, but I'd go "by the book" and use some hypo. My first test was a success, and I owe it to carefully following the well established principles. I did however use the lower-end recommendations for hypo quantity.

The hypo was really easy to deal with; I needed a liter total, and was using dektol 2:1, so I just weighed out 5 grams, put it in with 333mL of water, stirred it around till it was mostly dissolved, added 333mL of dektol stock, stirred and added H2O to 1L. Voila! Hypo comes in these big crystals, so it's not powdery and is pretty easy to work with.

Anyways, looking forward to your latest results. I'd like to determine what is needed to a) affect contrast, either contracting or expanding, and b) affect speed, pushing or pulling.

I'd love it if some of the oracles could chime in.

 

[Existing Light]

I can't say for sure of course, but I'd go "by the book" and use some hypo. My first test was a success, and I owe it to carefully following the well established principles. I did however use the lower-end recommendations for hypo quantity.

The hypo was really easy to deal with; I needed a liter total, and was using dektol 2:1, so I just weighed out 5 grams, put it in with 333mL of water, stirred it around till it was mostly dissolved, added 333mL of dektol stock, stirred and added H2O to 1L. Voila! Hypo comes in these big crystals, so it's not powdery and is pretty easy to work with.

Anyways, looking forward to your latest results. I'd like to determine what is needed to a) affect contrast, either contracting or expanding, and b) affect speed, pushing or pulling.

I'd love it if some of the oracles could chime in.

I'm not a fan of doing things "by the book."

I might have to deal with the hypo thing, though. I do like being able to shoot at around EI 100 so I'm not confined to handheld shooting outdoors in sunny or partly cloudy conditions. I dont mind using a tripod, but sometimes I want to break away from it and get spontaneous

I might just go ahead and start mixing fixer myself if I'm going to have a bottle of sodium thiosulfate in my darkroom

 

[Erik L]

A quick question please. Can one substitute ammonium dichromate for the potassium dichromate called for in certain bleach formulas? I have an abundance of ammonium dichromate on hand but no pottassium dichromate.
Thanks,
Erik

 

[Erik L]

Well after following this thread I got inspired to give reversal a try. I spent a lazy afternoon today taking a couple test shots and developing them. I was quite happy with the results considering it was my first attempt. Nothing to it unless I just had beginners luck
My process was.
Jobo cpe2 with a print drum
Film 8x10 efke pl100 shot at iso 100
develop in d72 1 + 2 for 8 minutes
wash in h20 for 2 minutes
bleach for 5 minutes ( bleach was 2 grams of pottassium permanganate in 500ml of h20 mixed 1 + 1 with 30ml of battery acid in 500ml.
wash for one minute
clear in sodium metabisulfite for 2 minutes (20 grams in 500ml
wash in h2o 2 minutes
expose to light 1 minute on each side
redevelop in d72 1+2 for 3 minutes
stop bath for 1 minute (3% citric acid stop bath)
Fix in Kodak fixer for 5 minutes
hca for 2 minutes
wash for 5 minutes
regards
Erik

 

[Existing Light]

Well after following this thread I got inspired to give reversal a try. I spent a lazy afternoon today taking a couple test shots and developing them. I was quite happy with the results considering it was my first attempt. Nothing to it unless I just had beginners luck
My process was.
Jobo cpe2 with a print drum
Film 8x10 efke pl100 shot at iso 100
develop in d72 1 + 2 for 8 minutes
wash in h20 for 2 minutes
bleach for 5 minutes ( bleach was 2 grams of pottassium permanganate in 500ml of h20 mixed 1 + 1 with 30ml of battery acid in 500ml.
wash for one minute
clear in sodium metabisulfite for 2 minutes (20 grams in 500ml
wash in h2o 2 minutes
expose to light 1 minute on each side
redevelop in d72 1+2 for 3 minutes
stop bath for 1 minute (3% citric acid stop bath)
Fix in Kodak fixer for 5 minutes
hca for 2 minutes
wash for 5 minutes
regards
Erik

Awesome! I'm glad you're getting full speed out of your film. I'm having to shoot my FP4 at EI 32

There's really nothing to this process. It just takes longer than making negatives. I wish I had this much info at one spot when I first started out.

just out of curiosity, do you have a projector for 8x10 slides? Seeing a slide that big projected would be most epic

 

[Erik L]

Awesome! I'm glad you're getting full speed out of your film. I'm having to shoot my FP4 at EI 32

There's really nothing to this process. It just takes longer than making negatives. I wish I had this much info at one spot when I first started out.

just out of curiosity, do you have a projector for 8x10 slides? Seeing a slide that big projected would be most epic

Yeah, I went through all the formulas posted and picked the parts that I actually had the ingredients for. I probably would not have attempted it without someone else doing all the dirty work of figuring out what works and what doesn't. The info here was a godsend to say the least!

I just winged it on the ei. I read on dr5's website that pl100 could be shot at box speed so I went with it.

The only projector I have is my enlarger I have a bunch of ilfochrome paper that I thought I would try in b/w hence my interest in trying the reversal process. It should be interesting to see how the ilfochromes look in b/w. Now I need to go out and take an interesting shot and give it a try.

BTW, do you know if I can substitute Ammonium Dichromate for Pottassium Dichromate?

regards,
Erik

 

[holmburgers]

Yeah, that looks great Erik. It looks like you have proven that hypo in the 1st dev might not be needed at times, or with certain films.

As for ammonium dichromate, that is an interesting question. As I understand it, sulfuric acid & K-dichromate form chromic acid.. so what does ammonium-dichromate make? And what exactly is the effect upon the developed silver that is desired?

Try it with ilfochrome!

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

I googled the other day and saw that ammonium dichromate is used in holography....but something implied it was used as a rehalogenating bleach...which I thought wasn't what is used here

 

[Erik L]

Yeah, that looks great Erik. It looks like you have proven that hypo in the 1st dev might not be needed at times, or with certain films.

As for ammonium dichromate, that is an interesting question. As I understand it, sulfuric acid & K-dichromate form chromic acid.. so what does ammonium-dichromate make? And what exactly is the effect upon the developed silver that is desired?

Try it with ilfochrome!

A little more experimenting today. I haven't tried the hypo in the developer yet, but I will eventually if only to prove to myself if I think it is needed or not.. These below are a couple I tried today. Same formula as before except that on the brown one I used a 10% sodium sulphide solution at 1+5H2o and it seemed to work well if not a little smelly I forget what chemicals to not mix with sodium sulfide which releases a poisonous gas, but I am still ticking so no gas has gotten to me yet! I used an alkaline fixer tf5 and when I dumped it out of the drum, it was black - something's up with that? I tried another one and used kodak fixer which is acid and it came out clear. I'm not a chemist so no explantation I can give?

Regarding ammonium dichromate vs potassium dichromate? I do not know? In carbon printing I know you can use either for a sensitizer but the amounts to use are different so I guess I was assuming maybe they would be interchangeable in this application.

The pics are both efke pl100 shot at iso 100
The regular one is ahot with a 300mm graphic kowa and the sepia one is shot with a magnifying glass. Still haven't tried to make an ilfochrome with them yet. I need a real photograph to experiment with the ilfochrome rather than some test shots as below.
This is a kick in the pants for me!
regards
Erik

 

[holmburgers]

Wow, so the sodium sulfide altered the hue that much? Did you know that was gonna happen?

Where exactly did you add it?

Check this... Like sodium hydroxide, sodium sulfide is strongly alkaline and can cause skin burns. Acids react with it to rapidly produce hydrogen sulfide, which is a toxic and foul-smelling gas. - wiki

 

[Erik L]

Wow, so the sodium sulfide altered the hue that much? Did you know that was gonna happen?

Where exactly did you add it?

Check this... Like sodium hydroxide, sodium sulfide is strongly alkaline and can cause skin burns. Acids react with it to rapidly produce hydrogen sulfide, which is a toxic and foul-smelling gas. - wiki

I used the sodium sulfide in place of the d72 for the 2nd developer. I expected that it would work similar to the way it works with paper. Well, I guess I had better use a nice long h2o rinse after I use the sulfide so I do not kill myself with the gas
Regards
Erik

Last one for the day is dry. Same routine with the sodium sulphide as before for the 2nd developer. 8x10 pl100 with 24" RDA

 

[holmburgers]

Man, really nice stuff.

Hmm... I guess I'm quite unfamiliar with sodium sulfide. It has the ability to develop? How does it work with paper? Me = clueless about this.

And yeah, better rinse real well... yikes!

 

[holmburgers]

Also, does anyone know of any literature that deals specifically with reversal processing? It seems like there's got to be some good old cinematic-photography texts.

 

[Erik L]

Man, really nice stuff.

Hmm... I guess I'm quite unfamiliar with sodium sulfide. It has the ability to develop? How does it work with paper? Me = clueless about this.

And yeah, better rinse real well... yikes!

Thanks Holmburgers, Sodium Sulfide is what is used to make sepia tones on b/w paper after the paper has been bleached with potassium ferricyanide. I guess it works the same way in the reversal process Anyway, give it a shot but be warned that it can fog light sensitive material so only use it after removing your film or paper from the area
regards
Erik

 

[Jordan]

Sodium sulfide reacts with the undeveloped silver bromide / iodide in your film to form silver sulfide. As Erik says, this is exactly what happens when you sepia-tone a bleached print. Sodium sulfide smells nasty, and an alkaline solution of thiourea in water accomplishes the same thing (maybe with a somewhat colder tone) without the smell.

 

[holmburgers]

Also, that negates the need for a 2nd light exposure, right?

 

[Jordan]

Also, that negates the need for a 2nd light exposure, right?

Yes -- the "sepia-toning" (sulfide-fogging) takes the place of the second exposure and development. You may not even need to fix at the end either (but it's probably not a bad idea).

 

[Erik L]

Yes -- the "sepia-toning" (sulfide-fogging) takes the place of the second exposure and development. You may not even need to fix at the end either (but it's probably not a bad idea).

I wondered about having to fix at the end as well. I did just to be sure there wasn't any lingering problems later on.

Here's an attempt at using a reversal processed ekfe pl100 8x10 neg on Ilfochrome. This negative is really rich to my eyes. I'm quite pleased but I do not have anything to compare it to except my other attempts. My reversal negs seem a little flat to me which works ok for Ilfochrome and I'm not sure how to increase the contrast with reversal processing.
d11 12 minutes
wash 2 minutes
bleach - ammonium dichromate + battery acid (I answered my own question whether ammonium dichromate can be substituted for potassium dichromate)
wash 1 minute
clear 2 minutes - sodium sulphite, sodium metabisulfite, citric acid
wash 1 minute
2nd developer sodium sulphide (10% solution used 1 + 5 )
wash 2 minutes
fix 5 minutes
this routine worked pretty idiot proof for me except maybe a little low in contrast for my liking.
regards
erik
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)