Budget SLR decision ?

[vpwphoto]

Personally, I'd stay away from the AE-1 and AE-1 programs...
... the ones I am coming across are showing electronic age... as in electronics are getting goofy... these are 30 year old cameras now.
Nikkormat!!.. but they are heavy things.... nice though.

 

[CGW]

An autofocus camera is not a modern alternative to a manual focus camera, it's just a different beast. You get a brighter viewfinder, but you lose the ability to easily and correctly focus manually, because focusing screens in autofocus cameras are optimized for light transmission not for help in focusing.

If you take pictures of fast moving subjects (such ad dogs and children) then autofocus is helpful. If you do street photography, or just cityscape etc then autofocus is a hindrance. If forces you to focus-lock-recompose which I find quite suboptimal. Besides with autofocus lenses you often have to give up on scale focusing. Depth of field marks are just a suggestion, but a useful one!

Finally, I have nothing against a more recent camera that works. But all the automation in it (autofocus, motors) is something that can break or go out of calibration more easily than gears. Motor-induced noise can also be very annoying in certain circumstances. It's horses for courses, younger horses are not necessarily better.

Generally speaking, I've no consideration for matrix metering at all. If you can't use an external light meter, you are better off using an internal one (whatever, but not "matrix") and then compensating manually than relying on what the camera thinks you should be doing (and the camera certainly cannot know better than you).

Just not so. Late Nikon AF bodies have bright viewfinders with perfectly acceptable screens. Focus confirmation has never let me down. They're superb with MF lenses. Matrix metering isn't an option with AI-AIS lenses, just centre-weighted and spot. It's an "alternative" that works for me, sometimes better than my F3s, FEs and Fs.

As for batteries, if the weather's cold enough to kill your batteries, then it's probably too cold for you and your fingers.

 

[Pumalite]

Yes, it's the 21st century my Canon A1 has only had to have the battery replaced
three times in the twenty three years I have owned it., and I always carry a spare

I prefer the Canon EF

 

[Diapositivo]

All this reminds me of one thing.

Regarding autofocus, a friend of mine had a Canon film model, AF mount, I don't remember which model, which had a very advanced autofocus feature: the camera has several AF points, and could be instructed to focus on the AF point where the photographer is looking at the moment. Some sort of sensor looks toward the photographer's eye, and understands which AF point is it looking at, and uses that AF point to focus.

I couldn't believe that. We went to his house and he showed me the thing. And it really worked! That, I think, was a sensible technical innovation. If one can train his eye to look at the focus point just before releasing the shutter, this mechanism, besides working very well for moving subjects, would also end the focus-lock-recompose ballet which one normally has to do with an AF camera.

I'm generally weary of electronic in lenses (it breaks, it suffers condensations, it wears etc.) but this was a really interesting innovation, I was certainly impressed.

 

[benjiboy]

I prefer the Canon EF

I have a Canon EF as well, and I prefer it too, but there's very few of them about,especially in good usable condition, there's bags of AE1s and A1s around there cheap and plentiful.

 

[MattKing]

Fabrizio:

And they can be really reasonable ($45.00): Dead Link Removed

I recently paid $28.00 for one, with kit zoom lens (thanks Craigslist Vancouver!).

The only problems with the eye controlled focusing is that it depends on the interaction between the camera and the photographer's eyeball, and eyeballs vary. As a result, for some people it doesn't work, and for some others it doesn't work consistently.

So far, for me, it seems to work well.

There is another advantage to the system. It can be used to control other functions on the camera. On my camera it is set to engage the depth of field preview - I just "look" at a spot near the corner, and the lens stops down.

 

[ghostcount]

All this reminds me of one thing.

Regarding autofocus, a friend of mine had a Canon film model, AF mount, I don't remember which model, which had a very advanced autofocus feature: the camera has several AF points, and could be instructed to focus on the AF point where the photographer is looking at the moment. Some sort of sensor looks toward the photographer's eye, and understands which AF point is it looking at, and uses that AF point to focus.

I couldn't believe that. We went to his house and he showed me the thing. And it really worked! That, I think, was a sensible technical innovation. If one can train his eye to look at the focus point just before releasing the shutter, this mechanism, besides working very well for moving subjects, would also end the focus-lock-recompose ballet which one normally has to do with an AF camera.

I'm generally weary of electronic in lenses (it breaks, it suffers condensations, it wears etc.) but this was a really interesting innovation, I was certainly impressed.

Canon eye control - available on the EOS Elan IIE, EOS IXe, EOS-3, EOS Elan 7E, and EOS Elan 7NE

 

[benjiboy]

Canon eye control - available on the EOS Elan IIE, EOS IXe, EOS-3, EOS Elan 7E, and EOS Elan 7NE

It's similar to a system that was developed for helicopter gunship pilots in Vietnam using " sight switches", so they could aim and fire their munitions quickly and instinctively without taking their hands off the controls.

 

[Chan Tran]

Obviously the system doesn't work well enough. Canon never put it into their top of the line cameras like EoS-1n or 1v. Nor that they put it in any of their DSLR.

 

[benjiboy]

Obviously the system doesn't work well enough. Canon never put it into their top of the line cameras like EoS-1n or 1v. Nor that they put it in any of their DSLR.

I've never owned one Chan but I used to sell them, and I found they didn't work for everybody, I couldn't make them work for me, but some customers thought they were the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[Klainmeister]

Back to the OP: Sounds like you have many options. Having seen a SRT101 dropped from a 600ft cliff (not quite sheer, but damn close) and recovered without having a single issue other than physical blemishes good for a story. Likewise, the Nikkormat I used for a while was from a Vietnam press corp member and had literally been through mud, rain, dropped on everything, and was used in firefights.....today it works like a charm. Both were delightful to use, robust and have solid lenses for reasonable prices.

 

[Rol_Lei Nut]

Agree 100%. The veneration of relics like SRTs, OM1s, Nikkormats, and AE1s and other 30+ year old cameras ignores the rock-bottom prices on much newer AF models like Nikon's that work nicely as manual focus bodies. Know very few people who will shell out as much--often more--than their "classic" mechanical cost for a competent CLA and/or fix. Bought a very clean Nikon N90s for way south of $100 last year. Who wants a crusty late 60's SRT 101 with battery issues and looming age-related problems? For what's left of the analogue era, I'll take newer/better/cheaper/plentiful any day. What's the point of a retro fashion statement?

You are starting with the false assumption that newer *is* always equal to better.

Mechanical shutters hardly ever fail suddenly: they (sometimes) slowly become less accurate over decades. Electronic shutters definitely are prone to instant and unexpected failure (been there, done that...).

"Battery issues" are a non-issue (or, more of an imagination-challenged issue).
The only purely age-related problems are foam seals (for those cameras which have them) and cheap (usually East Block European) cloth shutters sometimes age badly.

AF focusing screens *do* work poorly for manual focus (if you'd ever used a truly good focussing screen/veiefinder/viewfinder system, you'd realize that).

So to the OP, do get a "crusty old 1960's relic": it might well need a CLA, but then it will last you a lifetime, unlike an auto-everything camera which is only as reliable as its weakest transistor.

 

[pbromaghin]

I have a Canon EOS Rebel and don't really like it. The auto focus is fairly quick but the image stabilization causes a LOT of shutter lag. It's fairly good-handling but feels like a plastic piece of shit. The auto focus, IS and auto advance eat batteries.

The Minolta MD mount X-570 is my favorite. So much about it is just plain right. I used a Pentax ME Super for almost 20 years before getting this one, but it just isn't as good as the X-570.

 

[CGW]

You are starting with the false assumption that newer *is* always equal to better.

Mechanical shutters hardly ever fail suddenly: they (sometimes) slowly become less accurate over decades. Electronic shutters definitely are prone to instant and unexpected failure (been there, done that...).

"Battery issues" are a non-issue (or, more of an imagination-challenged issue).
The only purely age-related problems are foam seals (for those cameras which have them) and cheap (usually East Block European) cloth shutters sometimes age badly.

AF focusing screens *do* work poorly for manual focus (if you'd ever used a truly good focussing screen/veiefinder/viewfinder system, you'd realize that).

So to the OP, do get a "crusty old 1960's relic": it might well need a CLA, but then it will last you a lifetime, unlike an auto-everything camera which is only as reliable as its weakest transistor.

No dice. Newer is newer. Low rollage oldies are an exception but petroleum-based lubes used in the shutter trains gum up and require service that's getting rare and pricey and harder to find(ever notice the constant pleas for service leads on elderly cameras hereabouts?).

Funny I've never had Nikon AF shutter/metering electronics fail--ever. That's including hard, unsympathetic use in a few cases including wet/damp/dusty/impact/vibration/temp extreme conditions on high-rollage used bodies as well as new. My only problem with an "electronic" Nikon is a slightly faded LCD meter display on an early F3.

Mickey Mouse/survivalist solutions with o-rings and short-lived hearing aid batteries are a PITA workaround for old gear that used mercury batteries. Sure it's possible but who needs it when AA-powered cameras are available?

AF cameras work nicely for MF with MF lenses, especially Nikons. Yes I've used cameras with all kinds of focus aids/screens and don't find the AF models inferior with their electronic rangefinders. Your opinion perhaps but not my experience re: AF screens and manual focusing.

Overall, parts and service are becoming an issue for many older MF bodies as makers refuse service on old stuff and veteran service techs retire or pass on.

Old is old. It's fun to use but don't downplay the baked-in limitations and expense involved in shooting old equipment.

 

[Chan Tran]

CGW! The AF screens are harder to focus that is if you don't use any focusing aid. using electronic rangefinder then it doesn't matter what kind of screen it is. But if I get an slr I want to focus with the focusing screen and on any part of the screen not just the center or at an AF point.

 

[CGW]

CGW! The AF screens are harder to focus that is if you don't use any focusing aid. using electronic rangefinder then it doesn't matter what kind of screen it is. But if I get an slr I want to focus with the focusing screen and on any part of the screen not just the center or at an AF point.

Then just do it! How do you cope with a central focus aid on a MF camera when focusing on an off-centre point? Not having this problem at all with Nikon AF bodies.

 

[Chan Tran]

I use no central focus aid. i use no focus aid of any kind. When i bought the F2AS and F3HP the first thing I did was to buy a D type screen to install in them.

 

[Selidor]

What's the point of a retro fashion statement?

Girls were attracted to my silver OM-1n like moths to a flame, but they just don't dig my "professional black" OM-2n in the same way. I was tempted to get a silver OM-2n for that very reason, but so far Im managing to keep my vanity in check

To the OP: An AE-1 is better than an OM-10. An AE-1 Program is even better still, and since theres so many out there I would just wait until you managed to snag an AE-1 Program for around the price of a vanilla AE-1.

Naturally there are other great cameras out there as mentioned by previous posters, and you may be surprised what you can get for <£100 - even Nikon F3's.
As a previous OM-1n owner, I can tell you its a fine camera but you will either need to get it converted to take modern batteries, or use wein air cells that dont last particularly long (depending on usage, of course). An OM-2n solves this problem by using modern, common LR44 batteries (and is better in other ways) but will cost more.

 

[perkeleellinen]

I think we should also remember the OP needs a lens for his £100.

I suggest browsing Ffordes rather than ebay. If AF is fine, then there's some great bargains - plenty of sub £50 models with zooms attached. Should get a 6 month warranty too.

www.ffordes.com

 

[Rol_Lei Nut]

Then just do it! How do you cope with a central focus aid on a MF camera when focusing on an off-centre point? Not having this problem at all with Nikon AF bodies.

Well, my reference in that field allows snappy, easy and accurate focus *anywhere* on the field.
Think a Nikon H screen (you have tried one, right?), but much better...

I'll repeat, I find that focusing an AF nikon body (I do still have one) with MF lenses a real PITA. But De Gustibus....

 

[Rol_Lei Nut]

No dice. Newer is newer. Low rollage oldies are an exception but petroleum-based lubes used in the shutter trains gum up and require service that's getting rare and pricey and harder to find(ever notice the constant pleas for service leads on elderly cameras hereabouts?).

Funny I've never had Nikon AF shutter/metering electronics fail--ever. That's including hard, unsympathetic use in a few cases including wet/damp/dusty/impact/vibration/temp extreme conditions on high-rollage used bodies as well as new. My only problem with an "electronic" Nikon is a slightly faded LCD meter display on an early F3.

Mickey Mouse/survivalist solutions with o-rings and short-lived hearing aid batteries are a PITA workaround for old gear that used mercury batteries. Sure it's possible but who needs it when AA-powered cameras are available?

AF cameras work nicely for MF with MF lenses, especially Nikons. Yes I've used cameras with all kinds of focus aids/screens and don't find the AF models inferior with their electronic rangefinders. Your opinion perhaps but not my experience re: AF screens and manual focusing.

Overall, parts and service are becoming an issue for many older MF bodies as makers refuse service on old stuff and veteran service techs retire or pass on.

*Even* electronic shuttered and auto-everything cameras need CLAs, probably just as often as purely mechanical ones.

About pleas for help: I've heard just as many pleas concerning what to do with a dead as a doornail electronic wonder.

I've used my cameras (not only Nikons) over the years in all the conditions and situations you listed, and have had at least 4 electronic ones suddenly fail (including a Nikon FE2). No manual camera has ever left me in the lurch...

Old batteries: installing a rubber O-ring isn't exactly rocket science!
I use a self-made adaptor with a diode (similar to a CRIS(?) adaptor) and use silver cell batteries with it. Disadvantages? Probably adds 1 second to the battery changing time... Hardly what I'd call a PITA!
Maybe, perhaps some people also find most AA powered cameras completely unattractive...

Re MF focusing with AF bodies, see my previous post.

Mechanical bodies can almost always be fixed. In the worst case, a good technician can always manufacture a part, not that machanical cameras often need new parts. It's electronic and "newer" cameras that need entire proprietary modules replaced (therefore being 100% dependant on original spares) when something goes wrong.

I think the best we can do is agree to (strongly) disagree.

 

[elcabezagrande]

Since no one else has suggested this yet, I guess that I will have to. There are literally thousands of excellent M42 screw-mount cameras that are well within your price range, including several in the classifieds, that are well within your price range, and that fit all of your criteria. Pentax, Fujica, Yashica, Chinon, Ricoh, Zenit, Praktica, Pentacon, Mamiya-Sekor, Contarex ... the list goes on and on. And thousands of legendary screw-mount lenses from the major manufacturers as well as third-party sellers. Don't overlook these cameras, or you will miss out on some all-time classics from the golden age of SLR cameras.

 

[CGW]

Well, my reference in that field allows snappy, easy and accurate focus *anywhere* on the field.
Think a Nikon H screen (you have tried one, right?), but much better...

I'll repeat, I find that focusing an AF nikon body (I do still have one) with MF lenses a real PITA. But De Gustibus....

H/G screens are focal length/aperture specific--really handy(?).

YMMV but I've never had any issues with MF lenses on AF bodies. I happily use the 45/2.8 Ai-P(you've tried one, right)on an N90s-- a near-perfect street rig for me.

 

[ColdEye]

Nikkormats and Spotmatics are the way to go for me. The spotties have a wide lens choice, from the cheap and good, to the very expensive ones. With nikkormats pre ai lenses are priced OK.

 

[blockend]

In the end it comes down to what kind of camera you like to use most. In my photo kit there are fully manual metal bodied 60s and 70s SLRs through to AF 1990s stuff. I use them all but my preference is for simple to operate manual focus cameras that have an auto exposure option, so I prefer analogue dials over LCD screens and push button menus.
Most manufacturers made this kind of camera in the late 70s and early 80s and all but the Pro versions are within your budget.