Black and White film with tones more silver than grey.

JBrunner said:

[..]The film has little to do with it, beyond that one emulsion might need a moderately different approach than another. [...]

Click to expand...

so no difference makes no difference except in the way that makes them different... but that makes no difference?

ok

himself said:

so no difference makes no difference except in the way that makes them different... but that makes no difference?

ok

Click to expand...

Think of picking film like picking a hammer if you were a carpenter.

Would you prefer a 15" handle or 18"? 15oz or 21oz head? Do prefer a more hooked or straight nail puller? Wood, metal, of plastic handle? What type of grip?

Each will do the basic job of driving and pulling nails just fine. Only the nuance changes.

The silvery/glowy effect isn't nuance. It's made with deliberate placement of the normal straight line of the curve.

Using the hammer analogy, any one will do.

markbarendt said:

Think of picking film like picking a hammer if you were a carpenter.

Would you prefer a 15" handle or 18"? 15oz or 21oz head? Do prefer a more hooked or straight nail puller? Wood, metal, of plastic handle? What type of grip?

Each will do the basic job of driving and pulling nails just fine. Only the nuance changes.

The silvery/glowy effect isn't nuance. It's made with deliberate placement of the normal straight line of the curve.

Using the hammer analogy, any one will do.

Click to expand...

well yes and no.

while a hammer is a hammer, the handle length and curve of the nail-puller determine how much effort is required to drive or pull a nail. you'd never use a rubber hammer to drive in a nail after all

edit:
and isn't the devil in the nuance?

himself said:

somewhere between the second and forth shot would be the closest to what I mean.

Click to expand...

The first shot, which doesn't qualify, is in fog with very diffused lighting.

The other three that fall closer to what you mean, are all with point source directional light - the sun.

That tells me something about what you're trying to achieve.

himself said:

well yes and no.

while a hammer is a hammer, the handle length and curve of the nail-puller determine how much effort is required to drive or pull a nail. you'd never use a rubber hammer to drive in a nail after all

edit:
and isn't the devil in the nuance?

Click to expand...

There is no magic bullet. Learning a film enables control. Control enables intent. You are trying to equate an intent into some magical characteristic of some holy grail for a desire uber emulsion. Emulsions simply have properties, but all in all, it takes a great deal of skill to exploit what amount to minor differences. Concerning B&W I'm not talking about major differences, like speed, structure, color sensitivity, or major differences in developers. There isn't any secret formula, special film, and there isn't any "lost" knowledge. For example, the famous guy who taught me to print was taught by another more famous guy. Before the "another more famous guy", there wasn't much silver photography in the sense that we use it. Photographers my age are "third" generation down from the California school, the first "modern" photographers to really move into intent and control rather than documentation or pictorialism (although pictorialism is a controlled intent after a fashion). In general a dedicated photographer that has studied under some masters know more than their predecessors, not less, because knowledge is cumulative.


You don't see as much work like this anymore because there are so few photographers left that are willing to actually learn the craft. Instead they think they will find it in a box, or worse, in a program. There is no magic bullet. We don't use hammers, we use emulsions. Some emulsions are better at some things than others, but you have to know an emulsion inside out to yap about it. Otherwise it's just gum flappin about stuff people write or say about films. Best emulsion I can think of for the "silvery" look wouldn't make that look in a billion years for a snapper, as a matter of fact they would use it and say it sucks.

Best thing you could do is pick an emulsion, and learn how it pushes, pulls, expands, contracts, fails, and prints under most every circumstance. Same with a developer and same with a paper, paper developer, etc. When you know that process with one set of materials in an intimate manner and can use that knowledge to seriously control in an intentional manner how the final print looks, you will be on your way to self-curing magic bullet syndrome. When you learn a few that way, then you can figure out how to make them all work for you, and what materials and techniques of work best for a particular intention.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions and folks here that are trying to help you are sincerely trying to help, but in this case as long as you are looking for an magic bullet instead of a skill, your road leads pretty much no-where.

There isn't much more I can say. Good luck.

yes, yes ok

JBrunner said:

You don't see as much work like this anymore because there are so few photographers left that are willing to actually learn the craft. Instead they think they will find it in a box, or worse, in a program. There is no magic bullet. We don't use rubber hammers, we use emulsions. Some emulsions are better at some things than others, but you have to know an emulsion inside out to yap about it. Otherwise it's just gum flappin about stuff people write or say about films.

Click to expand...

Amen. To all of what you said JBrunner. But to the above, I don't think it's about not being willing to learn it, but that B&W craft isn't the priority in photography as it used to be, and more simply it's not in style right now. I've friends who shoot great work w/ point and shoots digis and they work just as hard perfecting a craft as I do. A photograph is as relevant as the idea it realizes, silvery or not.

Along, as you said, w/ judging film qualities I also think judging print quality from durfing around online is a joke, unless you're shooting for monitors is your m.o.. But I've never found Weston prints that silvery in person - at all. While surprisingly I've been blown away by what Winogrand's real prints are like in person...they make his book reproductions look awful. Etc Etc.

I was the probably the first person in the country to aggressively sell nail guns to carpenters, and
within two years almost no one was using conventional hammers anymore. Technique and materials
are always interrelated. You learn your films and papers, but some work for certain things better than others. It takes time and experimentation to learn the nuances, and to created that special
magic.

DREW WILEY said:

I was the probably the first person in the country to aggressively sell nail guns to carpenters, and
within two years almost no one was using conventional hammers anymore. Technique and materials
are always interrelated. You learn your films and papers, but some work for certain things better than others. It takes time and experimentation to learn the nuances, and to created that special
magic.

Click to expand...

were you really?

I always use a conventional hammer, but the right kind you know. we have a lovely selection in the shed - no good using a lump hammer for tacks... think of the thumbs

JBrunner said:

You don't see as much work like this anymore because there are so few photographers left that are willing to actually learn the craft.

Click to expand...

I agree with nearly everything you said, but not once did you mention how important seeing is.
If your idea of a great photograph is one that is silvery, you have to learn how to see the potential in your subject to this end.

The silver look I feel is as much about the surface properties of the subject as it is about 'mastering your craft'.
I'm always surprised by how much the eye of the photographer is overlooked in conversations about our art here at APUG.

Whether we're following in the great Californian tradition of photographic craft or not, let's not forget how important images are.

himself said:

edit:
and isn't the devil in the nuance?

Click to expand...

No, not really in the context of off the shelf material, like film and paper's contribution to the effect. Photographic materials and their response to certain inputs are knowns. They are available to anyone who wants to learn them. Follow the directions and you get a very specific result. Even modifications to the process can be accurately predicted.

The nuance involved is more about being able to follow all the steps in the instructions well.

Yeah, sure ... just go buy a cookbook, then get the correct list of ingredients at the supermarket or
whatever, and you can open a gourmet restaurant??? The whole game is one of nuances!

DREW WILEY said:

Yeah, sure ... just go buy a cookbook, then get the correct list of ingredients at the supermarket or
whatever, and you can open a gourmet restaurant??? The whole game is one of nuances!

Click to expand...

One of practice, learning, experience, and work.

I started and ran a studio for a while, it took real effort to learn/design the set ups and get things right. Once done though there were literally x's on the floor to place everything and predetermined settings for all the lights and the camera.

I could probably dig out my old notes, measure out the spots and remark the floor, set the lights and camera per the recipe and without so much as one meter reading, get a perfect exposure on the first shot.

I don't claim to be above average or highly nuanced in this respect. This is simply the norm for production studio work.

Well then, you learned some nuances of lighting. For those of us who shoot mainly outdoors, the
lighting changes all the time, and we have to acquire an instinct for it, one for which the rules seem
to change with virtually every different film, dev, paper, and paper dev combination. That's what makes it fun. But it's a helluva lot easier when good films and papers are available. I remember that
season when Seagull, Brilliant, and Galerie papers all were unavailable, and it sure took a lot more
luck to get certain "nuances" in the print. Then another generation of premium papers came along,
and today it's rather easy, esp considering the vast improvement in VC papers. But I never know
for sure until that final print is fully dry. Tiny differences can amount to the distinction between a
good print and a great one.

DREW WILEY said:

Yeah, sure ... just go buy a cookbook, then get the correct list of ingredients at the supermarket or
whatever, and you can open a gourmet restaurant???

Click to expand...

If only most restaurants would be that good. I'd patronize a place that just did an excellent job with Julia Child recipes.

I stopped by 'one of the best restaurants in Cleveland' and the daily special was Roasted Pig Ears. Creativity isn't the end-all.

Nicholas Lindan said:

Creativity isn't the end-all.

Click to expand...

True, but it does have a way of getting new things started.

I think creativity is probably the end-all, otherwise what's the point?

by the way, I have a mate and brother that are both head chefs in two different "gourmet" restaurants and both buy their ingredients from supermarkets... not really sure what that says, but there you go

DREW WILEY said:

Well then, you learned some nuances of lighting. For those of us who shoot mainly outdoors, the
lighting changes all the time, and we have to acquire an instinct for it, one for which the rules seem
to change with virtually every different film, dev, paper, and paper dev combination. That's what makes it fun. But it's a helluva lot easier when good films and papers are available. I remember that
season when Seagull, Brilliant, and Galerie papers all were unavailable, and it sure took a lot more
luck to get certain "nuances" in the print. Then another generation of premium papers came along,
and today it's rather easy, esp considering the vast improvement in VC papers. But I never know
for sure until that final print is fully dry. Tiny differences can amount to the distinction between a
good print and a great one.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't call what I described as learning the nuances, the basics or the broad strokes maybe.

I do agree that there are things that must change when we switch one material for another but, every black and white film and paper available today can produce the silvery/glowy look.

Sure, beyond that basic function, adjustments can be made to suit one's preferences. Your idea of a great print and mine may be hugely different though.

Nicholas Lindan said:

...and the daily special was Roasted Pig Ears.

Click to expand...

Did you try it? It's delicious!