Bellini C-41 chemistry. Expensive and unusual. What do we know about it?

[pentaxuser]

I have had a chance to see what Mr Bellini says is the process in his 4 part kit, namely developer- one part only and mixed 1+3 with water to make 1L; bleach 1L and used undiluted; fixer mixed at 1+1 with water to make 1L; stabiliser mixed at 1+100 with water to make 1L.
1. There is no mention of any stop( be that changes of water or acid stop) after the developer and before the bleach stage

2. There is no mention of a wash after the bleach and before the fixer stage

3. There is no need to use water washes at the end of the process before using stabiliser. Instead you wash each film 3-4 times in stabiliser but alternatively you can use the stabiliser once after a wash in running water. There is no mention of how long in running water or if there is an alternative of several separate rotational washes such as is mentioned in the Digibase kit of 4 x 30 sec plus 2 x 1 min with dumps each tme. I presume that the stabiliser for each film is a use once or twice and dump but this is an assumption on my part

Can any users of the kit say if they use a stop after the developer or water rinse(s) between bleach and fixer and secondly what they do when using stabiliser

This is just an assumption on my part but as the kit is said to be mini-lab chemicals then is this the reason why there is no mention of any water washes or stop?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Joel_L]

I have had a chance to see what Mr Bellini says is the process in his 4 part kit, namely developer- one part only and mixed 1+3 with water to make 1L; bleach 1L and used undiluted; fixer mixed at 1+1 with water to make 1L; stabiliser mixed at 1+100 with water to make 1L.
1. There is no mention of any stop( be that changes of water or acid stop) after the developer and before the bleach stage

2. There is no mention of a wash after the bleach and before the fixer stage

3. There is no need to use water washes at the end of the process before using stabiliser. Instead you wash each film 3-4 times in stabiliser but alternatively you can use the stabiliser once after a wash in running water. There is no mention of how long in running water or if there is an alternative of several separate rotational washes such as is mentioned in the Digibase kit of 4 x 30 sec plus 2 x 1 min with dumps each tme. I presume that the stabiliser for each film is a use once or twice and dump but this is an assumption on my part

Can any users of the kit say if they use a stop after the developer or water rinse(s) between bleach and fixer and secondly what they do when using stabiliser

This is just an assumption on my part but as the kit is said to be mini-lab chemicals then is this the reason why there is no mention of any water washes or stop?

Thanks

pentaxuser

I have been using the Bellini kits for a while now and have been pleased. I have not been using a stop after the developer, got right to bleach. I do use a wash ( 2 water exchanges ) in my Jobo, to reduce the bleach carry over into the fix. I then do my normal wash and then stabilizer.

I've been mixing mine 500ml at a time ( used to do one shot, but I find I'm getting better utilization reusing ). I don't recall how many rolls I did before I mixed a new batch but I think it was around 8 per 500ml.

Good or bad, I have also been processing vision film as well as regular negative film in the same chemical batch. So far no issues.

 

[blee1996]

I'm doing almost exactly what @Joel_L does: no stop bath between developer and bleach, wash between bleach and fixer, and normal 3-4 Ilford method washing between fixer and stabilizer. I mix 1L and reuse them.

 

[Steven Lee]

@pentaxuser Why would there be a mention of a stop? C-41 does not use a stop bath. The water bath between bleaching and fixing helps to prolong the life of fixer, especially in the replenishment regime. I do this anyway simply because I've learned to follow the Z-131 to the letter. Reading the PDF cover to cover, including the process troubleshooting section, really covers 100% of everything one needs to know about C-41. I can't think of a single question not answered in that document.

 

[pentaxuser]

@pentaxuser Why would there be a mention of a stop? C-41 does not use a stop bath. The water bath between bleaching and fixing helps to prolong the life of fixer, especially in the replenishment regime. I do this anyway simply because I've learned to follow the Z-131 to the letter. Reading the PDF cover to cover, including the process troubleshooting section, really covers 100% of everything one needs to know about C-41. I can't think of a single question not answered in that document.

Steven, in that case it may be that I have not seen the PDF cover as I could see no sign of any troubleshooting section All I saw was the basic instructions in Italian but with a translation underneath into English. Could you give me a link to this PDF, please?

As far as the stop( be that one or more water washes or an acid stop) between developer and bleach is concerned I had thought that I had read in earlier C41 processing threads that any leftover from the developer and mixed with the bleach shortened the bleach's life but I may have been wrong and it was only between the bleach and fixer that water washes are helpful in prolonging the fixer's life.

Mr Bellini says that the fixer and bleach has twice the processing life of the developer so will cover say 32 films. Has that been your experience or has the pre-fixer washes added more films to what the fixer will process?

Any others' experience with fixer and bleach in terms of processing life is also welcome

Also can I ask what you do about the stabiliser, do you use only the stabiliser or water washes and what do the water washes do for extending the stabiliser's life? I had assumed that a running water wash or several changes and then the stabiliser might have increased the stabiliser's life but I have no idea if this is the case.

If it does then with say 140ml of stabiliser in rotational processing for a 135 film how many films is the same 140ml good for?

Again I cannot recall Mr Bellini saying anything about how many films 1L of stabiliser does

Thanks and thanks to all the others who have responded to my questions

pentaxuser

 

[miha]

I use Bellini c-41 with success. However I prolong the bleach time to 1:30 (instructions say 0:45-1:00) and wash between bleach and fixer.

 

[blee1996]

@pentaxuser you don't need to reuse stabilizer. Bellini kit came with 100ml of stabilizer concentrate to make 10L working solution. Since I typically do 2-3 rolls a time, I always mix fresh 1L stabilizer, use it and drain it.

 

[Steven Lee]

Steven, in that case it may be that I have not seen the PDF cover as I could see no sign of any troubleshooting section All I saw was the basic instructions in Italian but with a translation underneath into English. Could you give me a link to this PDF, please?

Here we go.

Mr Bellini says that...

It doesn't matter one bit what Bellini says, (or Cinestill or Tetenal or anybody else) The C-41 process was invented and documented by Kodak. Z-131 PDF above is the only manual you need. If someone's chemistry doesn't deliver excellent results after following the instructions in Z-131, you throw that chemistry away and don't bother with it anymore.

 

[pentaxuser]

@pentaxuser you don't need to reuse stabilizer. Bellini kit came with 100ml of stabilizer concentrate to make 10L working solution. Since I typically do 2-3 rolls a time, I always mix fresh 1L stabilizer, use it and drain it.

Thanks, so if it was one 35 mm film could you use rotary processing and only 140ml of stabiliser which you would then dump?

In terms of bleach how many films can you develop with the 1L of bleach. Same question for the fixer

pentaxuser

 

[pentaxuser]

I've been mixing mine 500ml at a time ( used to do one shot, but I find I'm getting better utilization reusing ). I don't recall how many rolls I did before I mixed a new batch but I think it was around 8 per 500ml.

Thanks for the reply So you make up only 500ml of developer at a time and do 8 films in it? How long before you mix the second batch of 500ml and have you found any deterioration in the developer concentrate as air will then get into it? Someone was saying that the developer concentrate is full to the very top which may be preventing any air at at all getting it but of course this isn't the case when you have used half of the concentrate.

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[pentaxuser]

Steven thanks for the Z-131

pentaxuser

 

[pentaxuser]

I use Bellini c-41 with success. However I prolong the bleach time to 1:30 (instructions say 0:45-1:00) and wash between bleach and fixer.

Thanks, miha It looks as if washes between bleach and fix is well worthwhile and that maybe in my head I was mixing up the stop stage after developer with RA4 as it doesn't appear necessary with C41

Probably a good idea to increase the bleach time as even 1:30 looks to be quite short compared to what I remember about the Digibase kits which was 6 mins 30 secs and that seems in line with the Kodak recommendation of 6 mins 30 secs if I have read the Z-131 correctly

pentaxuser

 

[miha]

Thanks, so if it was one 35 mm film could you use rotary processing and only 140ml of stabiliser which you would then dump?

In terms of bleach how many films can you develop with the 1L of bleach. Same question for the fixer

pentaxuser

12 36 exp films.

 

[miha]

Thanks, miha It looks as if washes between bleach and fix is well worthwhile and that maybe in my head I was mixing up the stop stage after developer with RA4 as it doesn't appear necessary with C41

Probably a good idea to increase the bleach time as even 1:30 looks to be quite short compared to what I remember about the Digibase kits which was 6 mins 30 secs and that seems in line with the Kodak recommendation of 6 mins 30 secs if I have read the Z-131 correctly

pentaxuser

This is correct.

 

[Joel_L]

Thanks

pentaxuser

For the concentrates and working solutions I purge the bottles with Argon ( mostly cause I have it, there are other choices). I have had the concentrates go over a year when purged. The only exception was the last few Tetenal kits ( it has been a while ) I had. They died in a few months. Previously they also lasted a good long time.

 

[blee1996]

Don't overthink it, just do it. Develop C41 is like riding a bike, theory only gets you this far and rest is all practice and improvements.

 

[Mikey Antonakakis]

I use Bellini c-41 with success. However I prolong the bleach time to 1:30 (instructions say 0:45-1:00) and wash between bleach and fixer.

I just developed my first couple rolls with the Bellini C-41 kit. One 135 Ektar 100, another 120 Portra 160. Used the Cinestill sous-vide gadget with all chemicals in a big water bath (each in foil wine bags). Used a decent digital fast-read thermometer to ensure developer was at the correct temp before pouring into Jobo tank. I pre-washed per Bellini instructions for 3 minutes (okay, a bit longer on the 135 roll as I waited for developer to get to 38C).
Both rolls ended up grainier than expected. After some research, I'm guessing my 0:45 bleach time was too low. I guess I should try repeating bleach/wash/fix and see if it gets better?

 

[miha]

Bleach converts the metallic silver back to silver halide. If this step is not complete you don't only get grainier images, but also yellow or brown stains.

 

[blee1996]

I tend to run the bleach (1.5 min) and fixer (2.5 min) a bit longer time than the Bellini instructions, and I add a wash in between them to preserve the fixer chemical. So far I do not seem to have any elevated grain issue than commercial labs.

 

[bags27]

Don't overthink it, just do it. Develop C41 is like riding a bike, theory only gets you this far and rest is all practice and improvements.

You do realize that this advice likely marks the end of all internet discussion groups, right?

 

[koraks]

I guess I should try repeating bleach/wash/fix and see if it gets better?

It's worth a try. It won't hurt any, that's for sure.
If you can, please also.post some images of the negatives; maybe they contain some clues.

 

[Mikey Antonakakis]

Sure, here's 35mm Ektar 100 in the first shot, developed in Bellini with 3min pre-wash at 38C, developed at 38.0C (when poured into tank) for 3:15 although I forgot to put the tank in the water bath between agitations for most of development. 0:45 bleach and 1:30 fix, both should have been 36-38C. No rinse between bleach and fix (although I intended to, still working on not getting flustered with C41!). Scanned on Coolscan V ED at 4000dpi, converted with Negative Lab Pro 3.0. Full photo first, then 100% crop.

For comparison, here's a lab-developed 35mm Portra 400 shot, same Coolscan at 4000dpi, older version of Negative Lab Pro. I'd expect worse grain on the Portra 400:

 

[Mikey Antonakakis]

I should mention both rolls were shot with same camera and lens (Canon EOS A2E with 50mm f1.8 II), under similar "pretty sunny in Colorado" conditions. It occurs to me, though, that it could be exposure and/or scan/conversion issues - there are some other shots on the Ektar roll that look a lot finer grain than the rocket shot. For example, this shot with far less available light than the first two examples shot just as the sun was dropping behind the mountains.

I don't have a densitometer (yet) but both Ektar negatives seem to be similar overall density, for example the deepest blue sky areas (rocket shot) and the brighter areas of blue jacket look similar to my uncalibrated eyeball densitometer.

It also now occurs to me that although I'm not yet kitted up for RA4, I can put these on the enlarger with grain focuser to rule out any impact of digitization.

One last aside, today I picked up a Paterson Auto Colortherm in like-new condition (for about 1/80 of what a Jobo processor would have cost!), so hopefully that will help my future consistency.

 

[MattKing]

If you can, please also.post some images of the negatives; maybe they contain some clues.

koraks wasn't suggesting posting scans.
He was suggesting posting backlit digital images of the negatives themselves, showing the entire frame, the rebates/edge printing and the space between the frames.

 

[Mikey Antonakakis]

koraks wasn't suggesting posting scans.
He was suggesting posting backlit digital images of the negatives themselves, showing the entire frame, the rebates/edge printing and the space between the frames.

Ah, my apologies. I will see what I can do there, I don't have a light table at the moment but I should be able to use my phone.