Bellini C-41 chemistry. Expensive and unusual. What do we know about it?

[Steven Lee]

My love affair with Flexicolor is coming to an end as I am finishing my last 5L of their LORR developer/replenisher. By the way, something fishy is going on with my last batch from Uniquephoto.com. Control strip blue densities (LD, HD, and D-Max) are all +0.4 higher than they should be, while red and green are absolutely perfect. I've never seen this before. This is not temperature, not development time, or contamination. Those would have produced different RGB anomalies. In fact, Fuji and Kodak manuals do not even offer an explanation for such crazy runaway blue, so I am simply pointing finger at Sino Promise and their QA.

As I am evaluating replacements, I really like what Bellini offers on Freestyle. First of all, their kit contains separate bleach and fixer. Also, they offer the developer separately which makes sense because bleach and fixer have higher capacity. The downside is that it's more expensive than anything else. One thing I am curious about is the fact that their developer concentrate is just one bottle. There's no usual A+B+C.

Given the fact that C-41 chemistry is standardized, I find it puzzling. Is this some kind of cost cutting? Does anyone have experience using Bellini C-41 chemistry? Has anyone validated that it works properly with control strips?

Thanks!

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Given the fact that C-41 chemistry is standardized, I find it puzzling. Is this some kind of cost cutting? Does anyone have experience using Bellini C-41 chemistry?

I asked about the Bellini monopart C-41 developer on this forum earlier in the summer and received no responses. I may just order at some point to try out as it is reasonably economic in the UK.

 

[sillo]

My love affair with Flexicolor is coming to an end as I am finishing my last 5L of their LORR developer/replenisher. By the way, something fishy is going on with my last batch from Uniquephoto.com. Control strip blue densities (LD, HD, and D-Max) are all +0.4 higher than they should be, while red and green are absolutely perfect. I've never seen this before. This is not temperature, not development time, or contamination. Those would have produced different RGB anomalies. In fact, Fuji and Kodak manuals do not even offer an explanation for such crazy runaway blue, so I am simply pointing finger at Sino Promise and their QA.

As I am evaluating replacements, I really like what Bellini offers on Freestyle. First of all, their kit contains separate bleach and fixer. Also, they offer the developer separately which makes sense because bleach and fixer have higher capacity. The downside is that it's more expensive than anything else. One thing I am curious about is the fact that their developer concentrate is just one bottle. There's no usual A+B+C.

Given the fact that C-41 chemistry is standardized, I find it puzzling. Is this some kind of cost cutting? Does anyone have experience using Bellini C-41 chemistry? Has anyone validated that it works properly with control strips?

Thanks!

You had the high blue density issue too?? Finally feel validated lol

C-41 Process Control

Recently switched back to Kodak LORR developer after using Fuji for that last year. I prefer being able to buy 5 liters of replenisher and a single bottle of starter when needed, where Fuji forces you to purchase 4x5L replenisher and 6x1l bottles of starter. First batch of film I processed after...

www.photrio.com

Nobody could give me an answer and Sino Promise replied back to me a few times before they basically said "ask your retailer for a refund"

In regards to your question about Bellini, the current Fuji replenisher I'm using is also a mono-concentrate. CN16 N1-MV

 

[Steven Lee]

@sillo OMG thank you for reminding me! Our results are within 0.01 from each other, so it's definitely sino-shenanigans. I'm dumping all of my remaining Flexicolor chems at the local hazmat.

 

[sillo]

Do you still have the concentrate bottles? I tossed mine before I realized, but I have another 5 liter set of concentrates that are just sitting since I had the issue. Wonder if they have a similar batch number/production dates.

I plan on eventually testing that batch I have sitting just to see if the issue happens again, I've just been lazy and would rather developer my actual film.

 

[Steven Lee]

Nope, I threw them away right after mixing. In case it helps, I got mine in June 2023, also from Uniquephoto.

 

[sillo]

Did you end up developing any film with the control strip run? For anyone not running control strips this issue is very obvious once you print or scan your film. You'll end up with some extremely blue images

This (crappy) shot shows it pretty well

 

[mshchem]

Do you all run control strips, check with a color densitometer, plot results, make chemistry additions, adjust pH and all this then?
The correct way to run a lab but seems tedious to me.

 

[Steven Lee]

@mshchem I add a control strip to my 4-roll tank every time I make some kind of a change. Examples:

• Significant change in ambient temperature. The laundry room where I develop film is not climate-controlled.
• Every time I mix a fresh batch of chemicals, or when I change brands.
• Agitation changes, such as moving to rotary from inversion
• New equipment, like a thermometer or a new tank (recently started shoot color in 4x5)

This doesn't really add much overhead, and I like not having to wait for 4 exposed films, so adding a control strip lets me move forward with 3. But you are right: when your routine is dialed in and there aren't any changes, it's kind of pointless.

In this case densitometry allowed me to catch a manufacturing defect early, so I won't ruin film anymore. Also if your shooting volume is high, it makes sense to start replenishing. And if you do that, control strip process monitoring is a must, even with B&W.

 

[Steven Lee]

Going back to the thread's topic: I ordered the Bellini C-41 developer and will report back when I use it.

 

[mshchem]

@mshchem I add a control strip to my 4-roll tank every time I make some kind of a change. Examples:

• Significant change in ambient temperature. The laundry room where I develop film is not climate-controlled.
• Every time I mix a fresh batch of chemicals, or when I change brands.
• Agitation changes, such as moving to rotary from inversion
• New equipment, like a thermometer or a new tank (recently started shoot color in 4x5)

This doesn't really add much overhead, and I like not having to wait for 4 exposed films, so adding a control strip lets me move forward with 3. But you are right: when your routine is dialed in and there aren't any changes, it's kind of pointless.

In this case densitometry allowed me to catch a manufacturing defect early, so I won't ruin film anymore. Also if your shooting volume is high, it makes sense to start replenishing. And if you do that, control strip process monitoring is a must, even with B&W.

I had a free X-rite unit that was used by a local camera store, probably 1998-2002 vintage. I would have needed software and ambition to fool with it. I ended up giving it back. The RA4 machine that they used had a unit built-in to measure color densities of test prints. Rarely did they need to do anything. When something went screwy it was usually someone failing to maintain the machine.

I think the Sino Promise stuff that Unique Photo was selling until recently pre-dated covid. I have some Flexicolor chemistry I received this year that's IMHO old, at least pre-dating the pandemic and all the logistics nightmare. Probably sat in a container or warehouse for 3 or 4 years.

Going forward I will use Fuji, I don't trust the mail and outside labs to process my C-41, I used to have film develop only, two great local shops, both gone since 2020.

 

[Mr Bill]

Do you still have the concentrate bottles? I tossed mine before I realized, but I have another 5 liter set of concentrates that are just sitting since I had the issue. Wonder if they have a similar batch number/production dates.

I plan on eventually testing that batch I have sitting just to see if the issue happens again, I've just been lazy and would rather developer my actual film.

Hi, given that Steven has nearly the same issue it seems to clearly be a product defect. I'm sorta wondering now if it's perhaps very old with partially oxidized developing agent (CD-4). As a wild guess this might be reacting with the first dye couplers it encounters, in the top layer. Which seems like it might just put a blanket "blue density" on top of everything.

Anyway, if you still have any of the bad developer left, and IF you feel like experimenting, you might try replacing all of the original sulfite (I'm thinking about 4 g/L sodium sulfite, maybe? But best to verify.). If this completely stops the high blue densities the developer might be usable (albeit with a slightly lower CD-4 concentration). Best to verify it with a control strip if you have em.

 

[twelvetone12]

I used Bellini c41 a lot since I could source it directly in Italy and was quite cheap. I had very good results with it, but since I'm just an amateur doing my own stuff I never did control strips et al.

 

[foc]

C41 control strips are really only useful if you run a replenished system.

I don't see the value of control strips with one shot developing.

 

[L Gebhardt]

What were the batch numbers on the Flexicolor chemicals showing these issues? I don't use a lot of color negative film, but I did develop some film in the spring in LORR sourced from unique. I don't use control strips and the results seemed to scan ok. I haven't actually printed any in the darkroom.

 

[sillo]

C41 control strips are really only useful if you run a replenished system.

I don't see the value of control strips with one shot developing.

They're certainly more useful if you're running a replenished system since you can make fine adjustments to your working solution and process as a whole, but to say you don't see any value in them is a little extreme. I'm storing chems for a long time and shooting stuff that is important to me. They allow me to keep a close eye on my chemistry health without risking my film. I also want lab quality results without lab quality prices and I can guarantee my results by periodically running a control strip. The Rotary Processing section of Z131 even has a section describing control strip procedures for rotary tubes so they found it useful.

They were also very useful to both Steven and I regarding this issue.

What were the batch numbers on the Flexicolor chemicals showing these issues? I don't use a lot of color negative film, but I did develop some film in the spring in LORR sourced from unique. I don't use control strips and the results seemed to scan ok. I haven't actually printed any in the darkroom.

I'm gonna check my bottles next time I'm in the darkroom. I ordered 2x 5 liter batches when I got the bad stuff so I'm heavily leaning towards the unused batch also being bad.

If your scans are ok I think your chemistry is fine though, it's very apparent in the scans.

 

[Steven Lee]

Regarding usefulness of control strips... They allow you to know where the upper limit of what's possible is. Many folks get satisfactory results out of their routine, and they're happy. That is fine, but they do not know (no curiosity?) what their results could have been if their process was 100% to the spec. In other words, without control strips one does not know what he's missing.

Some examples:

Many people complain about the difficulty of getting a good color when scanning color negatives. This often leads to scanner-vs-DSLR debate. But I guarantee that a significant % of them are working with negatives with deviated RGB curves due to reusing blix-based chems or not maintaining proper temperature. How do I know? Because looking at control strip values I see a direct correlation between color inverting difficulty and how close you are to aim values. Needless to say, properly developed negatives are MUCH easier to color-invert. You only need to deal with white/black points and overall channel gamma. While out-of-spec development requires separate channel corrections localized in lows/mids/highlights and those are a huge PITA.

Another example: I'm pretty sure that most JOBO users under-develop their films. Why? Because if a normal person simply follows JOBO instructions they will end up developing -1C colder. First, JOBO bath thermostat is not that accurate, and the instructions do not account for developer cooling during pouring. Their tank warm-up procedure is completely pointless: running a dry tank in a warm bath for 10 minutes does very little to warm up its internals, and that cold lift doesn't help either.

All of this was discovered after getting control strips. I see them as a learning tool. Again, once you dial in your routine there's little point short of replenishing.

 

[brbo]

Where do you get your control strips?

 

[Steven Lee]

@brbo here.

 

[mshchem]

Regarding usefulness of control strips... They allow you to know where the upper limit of what's possible is. Many folks get satisfactory results out of their routine, and they're happy. That is fine, but they do not know (no curiosity?) what their results could have been if their process was 100% to the spec. In other words, without control strips one does not know what he's missing.

Some examples:

Many people complain about the difficulty of getting a good color when scanning color negatives. This often leads to scanner-vs-DSLR debate. But I guarantee that a significant % of them are working with negatives with deviated RGB curves due to reusing blix-based chems or not maintaining proper temperature. How do I know? Because looking at control strip values I see a direct correlation between color inverting difficulty and how close you are to aim values. Needless to say, properly developed negatives are MUCH easier to color-invert. You only need to deal with white/black points and overall channel gamma. While out-of-spec development requires separate channel corrections localized in lows/mids/highlights and those are a huge PITA.

Another example: I'm pretty sure that most JOBO users under-develop their films. Why? Because if a normal person simply follows JOBO instructions they will end up developing -1C colder. First, JOBO bath thermostat is not that accurate, and the instructions do not account for developer cooling during pouring. Their tank warm-up procedure is completely pointless: running a dry tank in a warm bath for 10 minutes does very little to warm up its internals, and that cold lift doesn't help either.

All of this was discovered after getting control strips. I see them as a learning tool. Again, once you dial in your routine there's little point short of replenishing.

I have a Jobo, totally agree about temperature. The only thing I've found is to use larger tanks and maximum amount the tank will hold. I use prewet on color films, the only way to be close to consistent. The lift is a heat sink in most cases.

 

[JWMster]

OP's thread kind of went off topic. Looks to me like the Bellini C41 kit is a 4-bath not 3-bath. Bleach and Stabilizer are separate rathter than BLIX. Haven't done this process, but curious whether this isn't the more traditional and possibly fit in with PE's (Long may he RIP) preferred process. Also curious about the Bellini E6. Pricing at Freestyle is competitive. With Tetenal and Kodak ding donged, options are needed. Appreciate hearing any experience folks have had, insights, suggestions. Maybe there's none....ergo hijack of the thread to talking about / bemoaning test strips. I get it. But we're not exactly responding to OP's original querry.

 

[blee1996]

I will share my recent experience with Bellini C41 3-bath 1L kit, as an enthusiasts who do not have control strips. Overall I think the quality and capacity are both excellent for my needs. I scan the negatives using Epson V700 for 120 and Nikon CoolScan V ED for 135. Based on the overall performance and price, I think I will stick with Bellini C41 kit for a while.

Quality: for fresh C41 film (Ektar 100), the color balance, evenness, and grain are pretty consistent from first to last roll. I actually used the same chemistry for 3 rolls of cross-processing E6 film, sometimes mixed with C41 film. Both cross processed and normal C41 film came out well.

Capacity: I got full 16 roll capacity out of the kit, and the quality is consistent from first roll to last roll. I did adjust color developer time according to the instructions. I used a mixture of 120 and 135 film.

Longevity: I mixed into working solution on August 23, and stored them in light-tight and air-tight aluminum wine bags. I finished my last roll on October 19. In the past, I found my storage solution can last at least 6-10 months. But I have not stored Bellini working solution that long: I have enough C41 film from summer vacations to process.

Development process: I use Patterson system 4 tank that can develop two rolls of 120 film. And I always develop two rolls of film in one go, to save time. I follow the Bellini official instruction, with only one deviation. I added a single wash cycle between bleach and fixer. I use Sous Vide to control temperature. I do not invert, but rather using the center column rotation stick. For every 5 seconds of agitation: I can do 5 clockwise and 5 counter-clockwise twist.

My previous experience: I started with CineStill CS2 simplified 2-bath kit, and then moved onto Flic 4-bath kit. I think the Flic kit is quite good too.

 

[Steven Lee]

Nice! Thank you @blee1996 Mine has been delivered last week, hopefully will do my first run today or tomorrow. @JWMster their E-6 kit was excellent, noticeably better than the results from my lab. Disclaimer: I rarely shoot transparencies and have always used labs, their kit was the first and only E-6 kit I've tried at home.

[E100 sample]

 

[blee1996]

Thank you @Steven Lee for the update on Bellini E6 kit. I still have one box of Tetenal E6 kit left, which is consistently excellent. Once the Tetenal runs out, I will definitely give Bellini a try.

 

[JWMster]

Blee1996: You're exactly where I am. I have 1 Arista C41 kit and 1 Tetenal E6 kit in the fridge. Planning on making them up this week. But looking to replenish the fridge with Bellini chemistry.

Similarly to your notes, I've tended to use Rinse baths between chem baths (unless instructed NOT to do so) to keep the chemistry pure and clean of contaminants from the prior chem bath, and that's worked well in the past for re-use. But currently I'm reviewing my C41 and E6 notes as part of getting ready to do a bunch of film... and get current.

I'd agree with those who find the Cinestill temp control gear quite useful. I bought one initially to help with my Jobo... but have since converted to making it the primary temp control.