Beginner looking at simple large format cameras. (Box? Fixed lens?)

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BradS

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...I'll say it again, whatever you do will be wrong. This is more-or-less everyone's experience with the first LF camera obtained..

I heartily concur...my own large format journey has included the following cameras. This list does not include the several large format pinhole cameras that I've enjoyed, nor does it include duplicates that I've owned of a few of these cameras. The list is not in chronological order and I've probably forgotten some. Today, I own just three of these cameras and really only use only two of them. There are a few that, in hindsight, I realize I should have kept - that they were about as good as it gets. Perhaps, surprisingly, the B&J 5x7 Commercial View fits this category.
  • Crown Graphic
  • Speed Graphic
  • Toyo Omega View 45
  • Toyo 45CF
  • Ebony RW45
  • Sinar F2
  • Gundlach Korona
  • Burke & James 5x7 commercial view
  • Canham 5x7 wood field
  • Canham DLC
  • Deardorff 8x10
  • Tachihara 8x10
  • Kodak 2d 8x10
  • Zone VI 4x5 (Richard Ritter version)
  • Nagaoka 4x5
  • Gandolfi precision
  • Century #10 studio camera
  • Walker Titan SF45
  • Fotoman PS45
  • Wisner 4x5 technical field
  • Wisner 4x5 expedition
 
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Donald Qualls

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Of course, if you're on a limited budget, your list will generally be shorter than that, even after decades of pursuing "the right camera."
 
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Candlejack

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Of course, if you're on a limited budget, your list will generally be shorter than that, even after decades of pursuing "the right camera."


Yup. It does seem like alot of it is quality control, the quantity on the market, quality in general, build material, control options etc. I can understand why people would spend $1k plus on a camera, or even $600 plus on a camera.. but I unfortunately cant drop that cash. I think if I built a darkroom and had the ability to see the difference in quality that may happen years from now... but i cant buy once cry once atm.
 

Dan Fromm

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Yup. It does seem like alot of it is quality control, the quantity on the market, quality in general, build material, control options etc. I can understand why people would spend $1k plus on a camera, or even $600 plus on a camera.. but I unfortunately cant drop that cash. I think if I built a darkroom and had the ability to see the difference in quality that may happen years from now... but i cant buy once cry once atm.
The problem isn't camera manufacturers' quality control, it is would-be users' ignorance. People starting out in LF don't know what will satisfy their needs. Some of them theorize obsessively about their requirements, but won't know what they'll find comfortable or unbearable until they get a camera and use it. They find out what they need by trial and error. In addition, needs change over time.
 

BradS

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... even after decades of pursuing "the right camera."

When it comes to Large Format, I'm convinced that there is no "Perfect Camera". It is folly to pursue "the right one" - they are all a compromise.
The best that one can hope for is to find one (or maybe two) that is "good enough"...
...and it really depends on what you want to do with it. I was as dumb and hauled that Toyo-Omega View 45 in its big studio case out into the field...up a hill, off the path....I was younger then and didn't even realize how silly I was. :smile:
 
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Candlejack

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Alot of right now is. "I hear a name, type it into google, and see how much
When it comes to Large Format, I'm convinced that there is no "Perfect Camera". It is folly to pursue "the right one" - they are all a compromise.
The best that one can hope for is to find one (or maybe two) that is "good enough"...
...and it really depends on what you want to do with it. I was as dumb and hauled that Toyo-Omega View 45 in its big studio case out into the field...up a hill, off the path....I was younger thenand didn't even realize how silly I was. :smile:


Ugh. Id be silly enough to do that. I coach powerlifting but I really dont want that type of cardio.
But yea, the compromise of using a press camera as a field camera might be the compromise that is good enough for me.
Set out a few large format pinhole cameras for long exposure, have a press camera I can semo adjust and play with, and my troubles may be over.

Ive delved tooo deep into other hobbies.. I want to skim the surface of large format and have fun.
Reloading turned into 3 reloading presses and 15 different calibers..
Longboarding went from 1 board to many..

I just want to go out and have fun with a camera lmao!
 
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Candlejack

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I know that this may be sacrilege.. but im also trying to keep my developer to l110 (the semi hc110 clone) its working well enough and I dont want to have bottles upon bottles of developer hah.
 
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Candlejack

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So, perhaps, there is one more part to your learning: press cameras are not a "step down" from a view camera; they offer different capabilities. That was the message before all of the butthurt. Your welcome.

Yanno what dude. Im sorry. This is stressful trying to figure this all out. I apologize.
 

BradS

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I just want to go out and have fun with a camera

The very simple, 75mm focal length, 4x5 pinhole camera made by "The Lens Less Camera Company" was about the most fun I ever had with a camera - any camera of any format!

That's another one that I realize, in hindsight, that I should have kept.
 
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Candlejack

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The very simple, 75mm focal length, 4x5 pinhole camera made by "The Lens Less Camera Company" was about the most fun I ever had with a camera - any camera of any format!

That's another one that I realize, in hindsight, that I should have kept.

I have their 50mm one. Its really well made and amazingly priced. What kills me is the exposure time, since I want to experiment with the ortho lith film. I had some good results last night in it. With the 1+200 l110 dilution, but i need a faster lens.
 

Donald Qualls

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The other side of "buy once, cry once" is that a camera you have is worth more than one you're still saving up for.

Get something that shoots 4x5 with a lens. For a first camera, there are many worse choices (in terms of learning curve and end results) than an 80 year old press camera. Unless you're specifically after certain effects, you won't even notice lack of movements for a while -- you'll be busy alternately learning how to process 4x5 film (because paying to have it done will kill the buzz faster than the prices of the cameras) and marveling at how much you can pull out of a negative that size with even modest scanning equipment (like a smart phone), with an occasional moment of "man, a 4x5 cyanotype or salt print seems really small, maybe I should try 8x10."

And if you haven't done it already, find Matt Marrash on YouTube; he's got dozens of videos from 10 minutes to a few an hour and a half long, all about large format -- shooting, techniques, processing, printing, troubleshooting. He uses an 8x10 field camera, but virtually everything he says applies to 4x5 in any platform with a bellows (just divide his focal lengths by two).
 

BradS

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...and as the old saying goes, if you don't know where you are going, any road will do.
 

grat

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The problem with LF is that there is no perfect camera. Every option out there is a compromise solution-- if you're in a studio, and want maximum flexibility, a monorail is a good choice. But they tend to be heavy, and awkward to transport. Press cameras are called press cameras because they were popular with photojournalists-- rugged, compact, jack-of-all trades cameras that weren't particularly great at anything, but did well at nearly everything. Field cameras are designed to be portable and lightweight, and still have a decent amount of movements, but they aren't as rugged, or versatile, or as flexible as other models.

My Chamonix 45N-1 is pretty, it's light-weight (3 pounds) wood and carbon-fiber composite, it's got a good range of movements front and rear, it's easy to set up and tear down-- but it can't fold up with a lens in it, the rear swing and tilt are limited, there is no gearing, and it's OK, but not fantastic for close-up work. It's also around $1k USD with no lenses or film holders. I bought it brand new, the manufacturer still exists, and I can get spare parts that are new.

My other 4x5 is a Pacemaker Speed Graphic from 1948. Weighs just over 6 pounds (with a 127mm Ektar), and because it needed a bit of work and had no lens, I got it for $200. It's a grab-and-go-- Built in rangefinder, two viewfinders, a ground-glass, the lens folds up into the body-- all I'm missing is a light-meter, and my Reveni can literally be worn like a watch. New parts don't exist, but replacement parts are plentiful, and there are many people who can help me keep it running well. Most of the work has been cleaning and adjusting. Bellows are light-tight, as is the body, and the focal-plane shutter is reasonably accurate. But it has no rear movements, and on the front, it's got rise, tilt (up only), and shift. Without the focal-plane shutter (ie, Crown Graphic), it would have been cheaper.

It is very possible, with the complexity of 4x5, to do all your research, believe that you understand everything you need to know, and purchase a 105mm f/5.6 Fujinon NW lens for your 4x5 camera-- and discover that it has roughly zero movements available due to the extremely limited image circle (162mm)-- which, FYI, is the bare minimum to cover a 4x5 sheet of film with zero movements. :smile:

You may pick up a 90mm f/5.6 lens, only to discover that A) it's too big to fit in your camera and B) due to the compression on your bellows to reach a mere 90mm, you have roughly zero movements when focused at infinity. If you can focus at infinity.

This is why people have said you'll make mistakes. The good news is, LF gear is either holding, or going up, in value, so you should be able to recoup most of your money from any mistakes you make.

The other good news is, there are people on here who've been doing this for a long, long, long time. They're willing to help, but they may use phrasing that doesn't sit right. It's up to you whether you want to learn from them.
 

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The problem with LF is that there is no perfect camera.

I see where you are coming from .. I guess its just preference.
some people are control freaks, they love to control every aspect of their image making
they love to be able to adjust their shutter speed by a smidgen and their f-stops by a smidgen so they use
an old betax slider shutter with no indents just a bowed spring.. they use a big old camera with lots of movements to
tie their bellows up like a pretzel .. then there are people who let their camera control them or people think they do
they use a point and shoot that shoots with hyperlocal, they use box cameras and temperamental stuff kludged together from 130 years ago
with no viewing port just a smirk and a button and wing it. .. and there is everything in between. the whole point of using a camera to make photographs is to find the box that can harmonizes with the user. a device that feels almost invisible even when someone's using it. maybe that's why its all compromise? because its like searching for one's soulmate.
YMMV
 
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Candlejack

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I see where you are coming from .. I guess its just preference.
some people are control freaks, they love to control every aspect of their image making

I wonder if I should have almost started off the search with an "about me" like a classified for a dating app to help find what would work for me :tongue:!

And to follow that up... my hobby/side gig is fast and loose/ tonalist landscape paintings in watercolor, ink and oils. Imaginary scenes, picking and choosing what I want, experimental palettes, letting the scene manifest, letting drying shifts take place etc.
I adopted this style due to the hustle and bustle of my everyday life, job, and other things. I needed to be able to do a complete painting in 30 to 45 minutes in order to both relax, and not have to think about coming back to it the next day.
 

removed account4

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I wonder if I should have almost started off the search with an "about me" like a classified for a dating app to help find what would work for me :tongue:!

not a bad idea at all !
I'm kind of split .. you might look in my gallery or website or whatever and see all sorts of weird stuff but I've been doing rigid editorial work and documentary f16.5 4x5 contact printed for archives for decades so my photographic interests are like Jekle and Hyde or is it Heckle and Jeckle ? I gotta be a control freak but when im not Im the opposite, way opposite ...
 
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Candlejack

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not a bad idea at all !
I'm kind of split .. you might look in my gallery or website or whatever and see all sorts of weird stuff but I've been doing rigid editorial work and documentary f16.5 4x5 contact printed for archives for decades so my photographic interests are like Jekle and Hyde or is it Heckle and Jeckle ? I gotta be a control freak but when im not Im the opposite, way opposite ...

Id love to see your work! Is it on here somewhere?
 

MattKing

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Id love to see your work! Is it on here somewhere?
Click on his name (jnantz) and a bunch of links will show up. Click on the one that says Media Page.
As a subscriber, you can have the same, although given the upload limits, it will take you a while!
 

Donald Qualls

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It is very possible, with the complexity of 4x5, to do all your research, believe that you understand everything you need to know, and purchase a 105mm f/5.6 Fujinon NW lens for your 4x5 camera-- and discover that it has roughly zero movements available due to the extremely limited image circle (162mm)-- which, FYI, is the bare minimum to cover a 4x5 sheet of film with zero movements. :smile:

You may pick up a 90mm f/5.6 lens, only to discover that A) it's too big to fit in your camera and B) due to the compression on your bellows to reach a mere 90mm, you have roughly zero movements when focused at infinity. If you can focus at infinity.

While both of those are true, accommodating a lot of movements isn't usually what you buy a wide lens for -- I've got a 105 mm triplet I've used on my Speed and Graphic View that just barely covers the film, at f/16 or smaller and focused to 12 feet or closer. It's a hyperfocal lock-and-go street shooter on my Speed, and a wide landscape lens with the bellows pulled in (but not solid) on my Graphic View. I very much like the images I've gotten from it. I've also got a 90 mm Angulon (f/8 version, so it fits) that I haven't had a chance to use yet (needs to be mounted on a board) -- I'd have no expectations of using movements beyond very slight tilt and swing for focal plane control. If my (new to me) Graphic View II won't focus at infinity with it, I'll make up a bag bellows with the end frames from my spare, probably leaky Graphic View bellows. Image circle won't allow much movement anyway, but it'll get to infinity that way.
 

Bob S

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You can’t have an Angulon f8. Did you mean Super Angulon f8 or Angulon 6.8?
 

Donald Qualls

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Probably the latter -- but it's at home and I'm not, at the moment. Definitely not a Super Angulon, nor the larger and more expensive faster version. Any case, it'll easily fit the 4x4 front standard on both my Speed and my Graphic View(s), I just need to make up a board for it to replace the one it came in (proprietary for one of the other big names, don't recall which).
 

Bob S

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Probably the latter -- but it's at home and I'm not, at the moment. Definitely not a Super Angulon, nor the larger and more expensive faster version. Any case, it'll easily fit the 4x4 front standard on both my Speed and my Graphic View(s), I just need to make up a board for it to replace the one it came in (proprietary for one of the other big names, don't recall which).
Big difference, the Angulon covered 9x12cm not 45. The Super Angulon more then covers 45. Two totally different lenses. So you don’t want to confuse people.
 

Donald Qualls

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BrianShaw

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https://www.kenrockwell.com/schneider/90angulon.htm

This is a good read on the topic:

https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/schneider-angulon-90mm-f6-8-lens.265634/

Graflex sold that lens for 4x5 applications and many used it professionally. Some of the adamant “it won’t cover” statements have a caveat, sometimes written; sometimes not) that it doesn’t cover WITH THE KIND OF QUALITY CRITERIA that they desire. I don’t recall Graflex ever suggesting that lens for anything more than straight press application. It is what it is.
 
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