Beginner looking at simple large format cameras. (Box? Fixed lens?)

[BrianShaw]

Get one a generation newer than mine, there's even flash sync on the rear shutter (though good luck finding focal plane bulbs these days).

Like Donald, my go-to LF camera is often a 1941 Anniversary Graphic. One more reason to go for a "newer" model would be to have a Graflok back. That way you can use roll film holders too. Mine was retrofitted with a Grafllok back, which makes it a near perfect basic LF camera for straight photography (no movements) purposes..

 

[Donald Qualls]

One more reason to go for a "newer" model would be to have a Graflok back.

There's a seller (located in Oregon) who offers a 3D printed Graflok conversion back -- I've got one on my Annie. Costs just over $100 plus nominal shipping, screw holes match those in the camera body. It does change the focal plane location very slightly from the original Graphic back, but I suspect the original conversions did this as well; the infinity stops are adjustable, so it's easy to compensate for this.

 

[Paul Howell]

I got my Speed in 1965, a Crown in the 70s, although I have a view camera I find myself using the Crown and Speed more often. Can be used handheld, lens are pretty good but for the most part don't cover all that well. In all the years I've the Speed I've only used the focal plane shutter maybe once or twice. The Speed came with a Kodak 127 the Crown with a Wollensake 135 which I swapped out for Zeiss 135, happily the Zeiss matched the rangefinder on the Crown. The Crown has a bit more movement than the Speed and is lighter and thinner, fits a bag better than the Speed. My only complaint is the ground glass back is somewhat dim, but not enough to source a brighter ground glass. Using the ground glass back I use a 150, 210 and 90mm lens, all three will cover the limited movements of either.

As a box camera, get the best deal you can, make sure the bellows is sound, no pin holes, the back is tight keeping the film holder in place, the 127 lens is better with shooting at infinity.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I'd also suggest that if you have a choice of rangefinders, prefer the Kalart (because it's adjustable to work accurately with any lens over the focal length range you'd mount on a Speed).

 

[Dan Fromm]

hi dan
I didn't realize that.. I still have and use my first LF camera, its a speed graphic I guess I beat the odds ?

So did I, because of stupid dumb luck, not because of uniformed reasoning or advice received.

 

[MattKing]

Lessee now. OP, you want to shoot LF but find it complicated and are now looking for a simple way. I don't know whether you know this already, but whatever you do will be wrong.

Sorry. I shut down after the first paragraph.

My (non-moderator's) rule of thumb with Dan is that he is always direct, often abrupt, and sometimes rude. But he is always fair, and his advice is often the best you will find in a thread.
So I'm going to suggest that you actually read the rest of his post, because this one wasn't even all that abrupt!
Most here would have expressed that quoted piece of wisdom slightly differently - "whatever you choose will be unlikely to end up being your final choice". Because the things you will learn from your early experiences with large format will be critical information you will use when you either stay with what you picked or, more likely, replace it with something more suitable.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I'll confirm that your first LF camera won't be your last.

Same as in any other format. "Perfect" is too subjective for any single camera to be the right one for everyone.

FWIW, my first LF camera was almost an accident, a mis-listed KW Patent Etui plate camera with three plate holders that had been locked in a case and the key lost (I presume, since the eBay seller had apparently sawed the lock pin to open it, rather than having the sense to just pick the very simple lock). It was cool, but very limited and limiting in a lot of ways. Yes, I could put large format (9x12 cm) in a coat pocket, but that film size was (even in 2003) somewhat scarce and it took me months even to find a set of film sheaths! Then I had to make equipment to develop the sheet film myself (Mod54 and Stearman Press didn't offer the things then that they do now -- nor J.Lane, whose plates could have started me off without the sheath search).

That model is still a great backpacker's LF option, if you can find plate holders and film sheaths to fit it, BTW.

After using that camera for a few months (less than one box of film), I got some "better" plate cameras, which I still have; they came with a bunch of plate holders, and I acquired more sheaths; given availability of glass plates again, I'll likely keep those -- but 9x12 isn't very practical as a primary camera, so I started looking for the Speed Graphic I'd wanted since grade school. Once I had that, I traded something else for an Aletta (homebuilt wood monorail), decided I like monorail but not the wood construction, and found a cheapish Graphic View in loose parts. I liked that so much I recently bought a Graphic View II (upgraded version) and will soon be selling off the first-gen model and its spares. Unless I start doing large format some distance from a road, this will probably end the quest, for me -- unless I spot a deal I can afford on an 8x10...

 

[Candlejack]

Yea. To be honest ill probably just block the fella, but thank you for the advice. Lol

 

[Candlejack]

I'll confirm that your first LF camera won't be your last.

Same as in any other format. "Perfect" is too subjective for any single camera to be the right one for everyone.

FWIW, my first LF camera was almost an accident, a mis-listed KW Patent Etui plate camera with three plate holders that had been locked in a case and the key lost (I presume, since the eBay seller had apparently sawed the lock pin to open it, rather than having the sense to just pick the very simple lock). It was cool, but very limited and limiting in a lot of ways. Yes, I could put large format (9x12 cm) in a coat pocket, but that film size was (even in 2003) somewhat scarce and it took me months even to find a set of film sheaths! Then I had to make equipment to develop the sheet film myself (Mod54 and Stearman Press didn't offer the things then that they do now -- nor J.Lane, whose plates could have started me off without the sheath search).

That model is still a great backpacker's LF option, if you can find plate holders and film sheaths to fit it, BTW.

After using that camera for a few months (less than one box of film), I got some "better" plate cameras, which I still have; they came with a bunch of plate holders, and I acquired more sheaths; given availability of glass plates again, I'll likely keep those -- but 9x12 isn't very practical as a primary camera, so I started looking for the Speed Graphic I'd wanted since grade school. Once I had that, I traded something else for an Aletta (homebuilt wood monorail), decided I like monorail but not the wood construction, and found a cheapish Graphic View in loose parts. I liked that so much I recently bought a Graphic View II (upgraded version) and will soon be selling off the first-gen model and its spares. Unless I start doing large format some distance from a road, this will probably end the quest, for me -- unless I spot a deal I can afford on an 8x10...

That progression is interesting. Much like firearms and fountain pens, it always seems to be an upward ladder.

What turned you off from wood constructed cameras?

 

[removed account4]

But are meniscus lenses capable of a subtler, more mid-fi look as implemented in say a Box Tengor?

not sure, but here are some samples from Reinhold's website: http://www.re-inventedphotoequip.com/Gallery.html
he's been making and selling Wollaston Landscape lenses for a handful of years and has a gallery with images in them.

 

[Jim Jones]

The cameras made by the Graflex company are perhaps the best press cameras readily available in America. However, they are not the only ones. I've probably used a Burke & James 4x5 press camera more than Graflex's Speed Graphic or Crown Graphic. B&J went to metal bodies earlier than did Graflex. The B&J had a rotating back, which seems more natural to use than having to rotate the camera body for vertical shots. The B&J, like the pre-Aniversary (1928-1939) and the Aniversary model Speed Graphic (1940-1946) uses 4" square lens boards, very easy to fabricate. It also has better front movements. Another good 4x5 is the well-made all metal Busch Pressman. Like the B&J it has a rotating back. Its lens board is harder to improvise than the 4x5 boards that were nearly standard for many years. Occasionally one sees a Meridian or the British MPP in America. Then there is the Linhof, but aren't we talking about more affordable cameras?

 

[Donald Qualls]

What turned you off from wood constructed cameras?

I guess I'd be better to say it was the combination of wood, homebuilt, and monorail design. In the end, it was a little clunky to use (no gear drives on anything), imprecise (once again, no rack and pinion anywhere), had excessive clearances (locked down wasn't really locked down, quite), and the homemade bellows wasn't perfectly opaque (too long with the dark slide out -- waiting for changing light, for instance -- could leave you with a fogged negative).

A well made home shop field camera, from a slightly better design than the Aletta (which was simplified, I presume to increase the number of completed builds by beginning builders) could be a completely different animal.

Overall, it was the Aletta that convinced me both that I wanted a monorail, and that I didn't want another homemade camera unless I could built it myself. The Graphic View convinced me I'd made the right decision, leading to the upgrade to the GVII (main differences are centered swings/tilts and Graflok back).

 

[4season]

not sure, but here are some samples from Reinhold's website: http://www.re-inventedphotoequip.com/Gallery.html
he's been making and selling Wollaston Landscape lenses for a handful of years and has a gallery with images in them.

Thanks, that helps: It looks like this type of lens produces Holga-esque results at larger apertures, but can be controlled somewhat by choosing a smaller aperture, so maybe I'll play with that.

 

[removed account4]

Thanks, that helps: It looks like this type of lens produces Holga-esque results at larger apertures, but can be controlled somewhat by choosing a smaller aperture, so maybe I'll play with that.

sounds fun
when I make cameras and use a cheap planoconvex I use a washer for an aperture. its not precise but it is inexpensive . not sure what lens you hope to play with but a washer or something similar might be a useful do it your self sort of thing ..
good luck!
John

 

[Donald Qualls]

A nice alternative aperture, if you have a 3D printer, is a modern version of a Waterhouse stop. Have a slot the correct distance from the lens for the aperture (this certainly matters with a meniscus, not certain with a plano-convex), and print disks with the correct size aperture. You could even print soft-focus disks (mesh of smaller holes, giving less area but over a wider total radius -- includes aberrations without requiring exposures too short for your shutter method). This would work even with an incompletely opaque filament, because the shutter is separate from the aperture disk.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

My first 4x5 camera was a monorail Toyoview 45CX. It's a relatively unwieldy view camera suitable only for use on a tripod, but has a graflok back and offers a robust set of movements which was and still often is my impetus for using large format.

The only other 'real' 4x5 camera I own is a Speed Graphic Pacemaker which offers a very different user experience than a monorail view camera. It is limited to front rise and tilt, but can effectively be used & focused handheld via the built in range- and viewfinders. Add a grafmatic film holder back for even more speed. Speed Graphics also have a focal plane shutter built into the camera, which allows for the use of barrel lenses, e.g. shutterless lenses. I always mount my lenses into a speed graphic board if I'm able, as I can adapt them to both the toyoview and sinar's 8x10 front standard.

Last and not least, pinhole photography is natural starting point for exploring larger formats. Zero Image makes some pretty slick ones, but other models and instructions for making your own are easy to find.

 

[Candlejack]

The cameras made by the Graflex company are perhaps the best press cameras readily available in America. However, they are not the only ones. I've probably used a Burke & James 4x5 press camera more than Graflex's Speed Graphic or Crown Graphic. B&J went to metal bodies earlier than did Graflex. The B&J had a rotating back, which seems more natural to use than having to rotate the camera body for vertical shots. The B&J, like the pre-Aniversary (1928-1939) and the Aniversary model Speed Graphic (1940-1946) uses 4" square lens boards, very easy to fabricate. It also has better front movements. Another good 4x5 is the well-made all metal Busch Pressman. Like the B&J it has a rotating back. Its lens board is harder to improvise than the 4x5 boards that were nearly standard for many years. Occasionally one sees a Meridian or the British MPP in America. Then there is the Linhof, but aren't we talking about more affordable cameras?

Thanks! Honestly its hard as there seems to be no immediate list of camera names I should look for. There may be a dozen available at this moment that would suit my needs.. but I dont know the manufacturer.

Graflex and calmut (spelling?) Are the two Ive learned so far. People seem to want an arm and a leg for them, or if they are listed cheap people are bidding wars over them. Its stressful hah.

 

[Candlejack]

I guess I'd be better to say it was the combination of wood, homebuilt, and monorail design. In the end, it was a little clunky to use (no gear drives on anything), imprecise (once again, no rack and pinion anywhere), had excessive clearances (locked down wasn't really locked down, quite), and the homemade bellows wasn't perfectly opaque (too long with the dark slide out -- waiting for changing light, for instance -- could leave you with a fogged negative).

A well made home shop field camera, from a slightly better design than the Aletta (which was simplified, I presume to increase the number of completed builds by beginning builders) could be a completely different animal.

Overall, it was the Aletta that convinced me both that I wanted a monorail, and that I didn't want another homemade camera unless I could built it myself. The Graphic View convinced me I'd made the right decision, leading to the upgrade to the GVII (main differences are centered swings/tilts and Graflok back).

Im gonna hone in on the bellows comment. I keep coming across pinholes, rotting bellows etc etc. Was there a point in time where they perfected bellows and no longer had those common problems? Or is it a "hey, the clock is a ticking on any and all bellows" type of deal?

 

[Candlejack]

My first 4x5 camera was a monorail Toyoview 45CX. It's a relatively unwieldy view camera suitable only for use on a tripod, but has a graflok back and offers a robust set of movements which was and still often is my impetus for using large format.

The only other 'real' 4x5 camera I own is a Speed Graphic Pacemaker which offers a very different user experience than a monorail view camera. It is limited to front rise and tilt, but can effectively be used & focused handheld via the built in range- and viewfinders. Add a grafmatic film holder back for even more speed. Speed Graphics also have a focal plane shutter built into the camera, which allows for the use of barrel lenses, e.g. shutterless lenses. I always mount my lenses into a speed graphic board if I'm able, as I can adapt them to both the toyoview and sinar's 8x10 front standard.

Last and not least, pinhole photography is natural starting point for exploring larger formats. Zero Image makes some pretty slick ones, but other models and instructions for making your own are easy to find.

Thank you! I should look into the name toyo to see if they have anything resonable on the market. It does always seem to circle back to graflex though in most convos. They must have just mass produced so much!

I have lenseless pinhole cameras. They are very fun and provide amazing results, but I would like a 4x5 that I can use ortho lith 6 iso or 400 iso film in without waiting 7+ minutes

My main focus has been go get a few shots in, come home and develop taco method, and then explore cyanotype and van dyke prints.

 

[Bob S]

Im gonna hone in on the bellows comment. I keep coming across pinholes, rotting bellows etc etc. Was there a point in time where they perfected bellows and no longer had those common problems? Or is it a "hey, the clock is a ticking on any and all bellows" type of deal?

Pinholes will develop over time, use, storage conditions, etc.. there is no “permanent” bellows.

 

[BrianShaw]

Help us help you… what is your budget? What LF accessories do you already have?

Both Graflex Graphics and Calumet/Cambo monorails can be found at decent price if one is diligent and patient shopper. Probably others, like a Toyo, also.

 

[removed account4]

I hate to suggest this because I have never used one but some people love these things. ...
maybe you should look into a polaroid conversion kit ( they are not too expensive ) to convert a
polaroid 110/110b to a 4x5 to take modern film holders. it would cost less than a traditional 4x5 camera
it would be portable and easy to use ( from what I understand the range finders are a synch to focus ), and you
wouldn't have to deal with moth eaten bellows, parts for 100 year old cameras, screwy stuff that always goes wrong
you'd have a somewhat modern camera and a somewhat modern lens... that you can stick in your jacket pocket and take anywhere, instead of some big clunky camera to deal with.
WILLIAM LITTMAN and I wish I could remember the guy in OZ used to make these cameras and sell them for $$
now the conversion kits are on ebay for 100$ or so... big difference between spending 200clams or 100,000 for a LITTMANN Special!

 

[grat]

Blocking Dan would be a mistake. As would taking his phrasing personally.

Stupid simple would be a WillTravel 4x5 (print it yourself, or check eBay). Alternatively might be the Chroma Snapshot.

The cheapest way into LF is still going to be a recent model crown graphic with a Graflok back (two chrome sliders). It's compact, rugged, reasonably easy to find parts, and if it's the pacemaker model, it has some movements-- but it's not fantastic for architectural.

Horseman, Toyo, Wista, Linhof-- they all made metal-body field cameras, and they go for varying prices depending on features, condition, etc.

 

[Paul Howell]

On the really cheap side are New View and Brand. These are sorta of interesting, not a monorail, not a true flat bed, made after WWII with aluminum frames made from recycled WWII airplanes that were melted down in the late 40s. I bought a Brand, found it at swap meet in 1986, paid like $50 for it with pretty good lens. It has good movements, my version is not set as a press Camera, not even sure how the rangefinder would work. It has pretty good movements, it is light, the handle makes it easy to carry it in the field. The image is not of my camera but a press version of the same camera.

aluminium

 

[Paul Howell]

Here is the picture.