Back in June 2018, the Ferrania Folks hoped to be in continuous production by Fall

[pentaxuser]

Thanks, faberryman. If I have understood Adrian's testing correctly and I may not have, a very short development time with an EI that is half of Greg's 32 may work. I had a look at another 2 videos on this film and neither seemed worth very much terms of a scientific analysis compared to Greg's.

In neither is there any reference to its ortho qualities. In fact in one, the presenter introduces it as a famous ISO 80 panchromatic film from the heyday of the Italian cinema. He even uses what he say is a red filter over the lens( it did at least look orange/red) and if this was authentic then I am led to believe that it should have made the film blank but all it did was to leave the orange/reds in the scene very dark instead of lightening them but there was no mention of this effect

Maybe a 25 or even lighter red or orange/red filter does not block out other colours to an obvious extent?

Certainly in Adrian's stop sign which I think was white on a bright red background the red was rendered as good as black.

The one thing in the video that I think was based on fact was his summary of what Ferrania has to say about the dos and don'ts with P30It was clear that Ferrania recommends home developing rather than using a lab. He assumed it was because of the danger of ripping but didn't make clear, assuming this was Ferrania's reason, what it is about the film that renders it more susceptible to ripping

What struck me after reading Adrian's report is that what Ferrania may be equally concerned about as well as ripping is that labs use, in the main, continuous agitation and the effect this may have on contrast.

pentaxuser

 

[faberryman]

In neither is there any reference to its ortho qualities. In fact in one, the presenter introduces it as a famous ISO 80 panchromatic film from the heyday of the Italian cinema.

Well, it does say "panchro" on the box.

There are quite a few reviews of P30 (and everything else imaginable) on YouTube. I don't spend time watching them and trying to sort the wheat from the chaff. YouTube is just not a go-to source for accurate information.

 

[pentaxuser]

Well, it does say "panchro" on the box.

There are quite a few reviews of P30 (and everything else imaginable) on YouTube. I don't spend time watching them and trying to sort the wheat from the chaff. YouTube is just not a go-to source for accurate information.

Quite and it appears that in this video to which I refer the presenter is simply repeating what Ferrania states and is either unaware of the effect P30 has on reds even when it reveals itself in one of his shots taken with a filter that should have lightened the reds instead of having no effect or simply glossed over what he knew to be a contradiction when a red filter is used with panchromatic film
Yes Youtube content varies considerably in quality but its accuracy and even trustworthiness depends entirely on the presenter and what he is trying to achieve. Some of the better videos have almost no followers which must be no small matter if your income depends on the number of followers/patreons you have.

There was an old saying in my part of the world which has largely passed into history as you see so few outside fish stalls in market places but it retains a kernel of truth in it, namely : You never hear a fishmonger crying "stinking fish"

pentaxuser

 

[cmacd123]

What struck me after reading Adrian's report is that what Ferrania may be equally concerned about as well as ripping is that labs use, in the main, continuous agitation and the effect this may have on contrast.

but elsewhere they recommend continuous agitation as the film has motion picture roots, and Motion picture processing machines have the film constantly in motion.

 

[pentaxuser]

but elsewhere they recommend continuous agitation as the film has motion picture roots, and Motion picture processing machines have the film constantly in motion.

So any idea where the danger of ripping the film comment from the presenter might have come from? I suppose that the two statements can be reconciled if Ferrania is recommending "home" constant agitation of the either constant inversion or Jobo rotation sort but if this is the correct interpretation of Ferrania's recommendations then a pity this wasn't make clearer by Ferrania or was it?

It might help if you can say where Ferrania made its recommendation for continuous agitation. Is it in the written insructions or somethig it said on Photrio ?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[cmacd123]

It might help if you can say where Ferrania made its recommendation for continuous agitation. Is it in the written insructions or somethig it said on Photrio ?

I thought it was in one of the versions of best practices. but after just looking at three of them, I can't find it. their have been so many comments over the last few years that It is hard to remember where one gets impressions.

their first batch they were having some problems with their slitting machine, and so they were being unsure if the film might tear in a lab processor.

 

[faberryman]

It might help if you can say where Ferrania made its recommendation for continuous agitation. Is it in the written insructions or somethig it said on Photrio?

Processing with a rotary tank is one of Ferrania recommended techniques for which they recommend constant rotation (duh), which sounds to me like constant agitation. One of their recommendations for D-76 and D-96 in a small tank is "Continuous inversions, or roll tank back and forth". The also recommend lab processing with Fuji Negastar and Ilford DD. The footnote says lab processing means dip and dunk.

https://www.filmferrania.com/p30-processing

Ferrania hasn't actually done any testing. They are just passing on info from users, so who knows which processing technique, including agitation method, is best.

 

[pentaxuser]

Processing with a rotary tank is one of Ferrania recommended techniques for which they recommend constant rotation (duh), which sounds to me like constant agitation.
https://www.filmferrania.com/p30-processing

Ferrania hasn't actually done any testing. They are just passing on info from users, so who knows which processing technique, including agitation method, is best.

Thanks Well we seem to be no further forward in the quest to discover more about P30's danger of ripping but maybe that has now passed.

Thanks for the Ferrania processing details. I am somewhat confused about which of the recommendations are actually Ferrania's own and which are simply users' contributions which together form "Best Practices"

So has Ferrania actually put its name to the first sentence in your quote and said that this was its own testing for D76 using constant rotation/ inversion?. I just couldn't work out if there is a difference between the "RECOMMENDED DEVELOPERS AND TECHNIQUES" and the ADDITIONAL PROCESSING TECHNIQUES in that the former has had some actual input from Ferrania and the later none in sense that it is simply repeating what users have supplied

pentaxuser

 

[faberryman]

So has Ferrania actually put its name to the first sentence in your quote and said that this was its own testing for D76 using constant rotation/ inversion?. I just couldn't work out if there is a difference between the "RECOMMENDED DEVELOPERS AND TECHNIQUES" and the ADDITIONAL PROCESSING TECHNIQUES in that the former has had some actual input from Ferrania and the later none in sense that it is simply repeating what users have supplied

From the link previously supplied:

"As with most black and white films, there are literally thousands of ways to process Ferrania P30 successfully. Please understand that this is not a classic data sheet but a collection of “best practices” collected from users' feedback - and so it is subject to users' personal and evaluative tastes."

I believe Ferrania originally recommended developing P30 in D96 because that was what the motion picture labs used to develop it back in its heyday. After P30 was released in 2017, since you had to mix up D96 from scratch, most users just used their favorite developer to process it and reported back the results. D96 is now available from CineStill.

By the way, Ferrania insists P30 is an ISO 80 film:

"Shoot at 80 ISO. We firmly recommend shooting this film at the box speed of 80 ISO."

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks Faberryman and I'd agree that your conclusions and mine appear to be the same but in terms of "facts about Ferrania P30 " I can say that nearly all of what I have read and seen on videos is, as michael_r says, not characteristics or facts but what they like for reasons that are far from clear to me either

None of the above is to say that it might not be a desirable film nor is it to decry the revival of an old film but I am just trying to establish what is known about it so we may know what are the facts that help us to use it to its best.

It may well be that the Ferrania people do not have the time to test the film in a specific developer to establish film speed, CI, its ortho qualities etc but it just seems a little puzzling that no attempt has been by Ferrania as yet to do so.

pentaxuser

 

[Agulliver]

Presumably one wants to use a film for some reason - some particular characteristic for example. What amuses me regarding this Ferrania stuff is nobody has an idea what its characteristics actually are, and yet they want it so much - apparently for no particular reason.

On the contrary....when I use P30 it is because it is virtually grain free even in 135. In 120 it's going to be something of a game changer in that regard. It has very rich contrast, which makes it good for certain situations - buildings, landscapes, wildlife...not necessarily portraits.

I thought the whole film fragility issue was Film Ferrania recommending it not to be used in cameras with automatic electronic rewind systems? I've used it in manual wind cameras only so far.

 

[pentaxuser]

I thought the whole film fragility issue was Film Ferrania recommending it not to be used in cameras with automatic electronic rewind systems? I've used it in manual wind cameras only so far.

Isn't that the point. It is all "thought" as opposed to know because Ferrania has not told us. The same statement applies to speed, ortho or not, Ferrania recommended developers and times etc

pentaxuser

 

[Mackinaw]

How would it be more “grain free” than say Ilford Pan F?......

In my experience, it is more grain free than Pan-F. Shooting Ferrania P30 kind of reminds me of developing your B&W film in Microdol-X. The grain looks "smeared." I like the effect, but that's just me.

Jim B.

 

[Agulliver]

Isn't that the point. It is all "thought" as opposed to know because Ferrania has not told us. The same statement applies to speed, ortho or not, Ferrania recommended developers and times etc

pentaxuser

Ferrania advised us not to use the alpha film in electric motor wind cameras, as there were concerns it could break...especially at the end of the roll where the film could become detached from the spool inside the cassette.

I don't see this advice for the retail product.

 

[pentaxuser]

Ferrania advised us not to use the alpha film in electric motor wind cameras, as there were concerns it could break...especially at the end of the roll where the film could become detached from the spool inside the cassette.

I don't see this advice for the retail product.

Thanks It looks like Ferrania may have fixed this issue. If I were Ferrania and knew that progress on P30 and the rest of its objectives was proceeding more slowly than had been anticipated I might have wanted to give out the positive news that consumers need no longer consider this former problem of its film and electric wind cameras.

However the whole trust of recent posts has been about Ferrania communications or perceived lack of them.

pentaxuser

 

[Agulliver]

Thanks It looks like Ferrania may have fixed this issue. If I were Ferrania and knew that progress on P30 and the rest of its objectives was proceeding more slowly than had been anticipated I might have wanted to give out the positive news that consumers need no longer consider this former problem of its film and electric wind cameras.

However the whole trust of recent posts has been about Ferrania communications or perceived lack of them.

pentaxuser

I think they did state that the advice not to use motor wind cameras with P30 did not apply to the retail product, only the alpha product.

 

[AZD]

Presumably one wants to use a film for some reason - some particular characteristic for example. What amuses me regarding this Ferrania stuff is nobody has an idea what its characteristics actually are, and yet they want it so much - apparently for no particular reason.

I count myself in that category and ordered a couple rolls last year, but just got around to some "testing", or imprecise experimentation you might say. I'm not sure what I was expecting, other than a challenge. Oh, and strong contrast cinematic bokeh excellent capture. But certainly not Master of P30 on Instagram our YouTube. I'm far too ugly for that game. Anyhoo...

From everything I had seen and read online - all the same stuff everyone else has seen I'm sure - the results looked almost universally - what's the word? - awful. That, and comments like "empty shadows and blown highlights" suggested P30, despite Ferrania's recommended speed of 80, was being underexposed and over developed. So okay, call 80 a two stop push, and work back from there. Set the meter to 32 (I know, not two full stops, but I like EI's to match shutter speeds) and bracket one stop up and one down. ID-11 stock, 20C, 6.5 minutes, mild normal agitation... Negatives have respectable shadow detail at EI 15 and 32, not so great at 64. Seriously blown highlights on all three. To define more clearly: I don't mean too dense for a crappy scanner blown, I mean highlights as dark as the exposed film leader blown. The small wet prints I made look decent otherwise. So the next experiment will be to bracket from maybe EI 8 - 32, and pull development back even more. See if I can turn it to mud, just for fun. Normally I struggle to get negatives with enough contrast for my old diffuser enlarger. Not with P30.

So what will I end up with, assuming I can tame the highlights? For me, a slow film with almost no grain, and limited to occasional use. Definitely not something that will live in my camera full time. But that's okay. However, there's tough competition, and I can't yet define exactly what P30 does differently, other than take up a lot of time trying to figure that out. If I'm looking for an ortho response, Ilford has that covered with Ortho 80, which is for me a real 80, easily exposed/developed/printed, and an all-around winner in that category. If I'm looking for a magic European film with old-school heritage, unique tonality, and that elusive "holy sh** I can't believe it looks this good" thing, Adox CHS 100 II has my vote. If I'm looking for something that's reliable under the worst possible combination of exposure, development, and human error, it's HP5+ or die trying to afford Tri-X. Cheap, easy, sharp, and decent grain? Ultrafine/Kentmere 100 it is. Nicest film box? Oh, P30, I knew you'd come through!

I'm hopeful that I can make P30 work. It's a small miracle Ferrania even managed to produce film and I'd like to see them succeed. Sadly though, it's a branding disaster, as the target consumer seems to be someone who buys expensive mystery film, has possibly heard of the movie Raging Bull, and likes to post Instagram pictures of their camera next to that beautiful P30 box. Honestly, I've seen coffins that aren't that nice. It's a great box!

 

[faberryman]

On the contrary....when I use P30 it is because it is virtually grain free even in 135. In 120 it's going to be something of a game changer in that regard. It has very rich contrast, which makes it good for certain situations - buildings, landscapes, wildlife...not necessarily portraits.

What game in 120 is P30 going to change?

 

[pentaxuser]

the target consumer seems to be someone who buys expensive mystery film, has possibly heard of the movie Raging Bull, !

Thanks for your comprehensive report on your tests with P30 I have recently downloaded "Raging Bull" so I must have a look at the shadows areas in it and try to see if there are any recognisable i.e. known "red " objects to see how dark they are

As I am not a resident in the U.S. what sort of objects are always red? Here in the U.K. Royal Mail post boxes are one example and old public telephone booths In those days I think that all boxers used black shorts, otherwise if Jake was famous for red shorts then this makes it easy Real blood on genuine panchro film would be very pale but fake film blood may be much darker to make it resemble real blood in a b&w film

pentaxuser

 

[faberryman]

Watching Raging Bull won't tell you much about P30 since it was shot on Kodak Double-X. You'll need to watch a Fellini film like La dolce Vita or 8½. I am not sure how you will know what objects are red in the film, unless perhaps you are familiar with Italian road signs from the early 1960s.

 

[MattKing]

You'll need to watch a Fellini film like La dolce Vita or 8½.

Which is a good recommendation, even if you don't care about the film stock .
I wonder what colours the cars and the bus were?

 

[Agulliver]

What game in 120 is P30 going to change?

It's pretty much grain free in 135. In 120, it will be possible to make huge crops or enlargements without noticeable grain. People have also experimented successfully with reversal processing of P30 and I can imagine medium format slides will contain a level of detail never before seen. It's *that* detailed when handled according to the best practices document.

Could also be very good in small formats such as 8mm and 16mm. Compared to Fomapan R 100 (currently the most easily available double 8mm stock) it's a totally different universe in terms of detail and grain.

 

[faberryman]

It's pretty much grain free in 135. In 120, it will be possible to make huge crops or enlargements without noticeable grain. People have also experimented successfully with reversal processing of P30 and I can imagine medium format slides will contain a level of detail never before seen. It's *that* detailed when handled according to the best practices document.

Have you compared Ilford Pan F with P30 in 135, and extrapolated to 120?

Could also be very good in small formats such as 8mm and 16mm. Compared to Fomapan R 100 (currently the most easily available double 8mm stock) it's a totally different universe in terms of detail and grain.

When is P30 coming out in 8mm and 16mm?

 

[lantau]

Which is a good recommendation, even if you don't care about the film stock .
I wonder what colours the cars and the bus were?

That actually reminds me of P30!

Looking out of the tunnel the daylight background is very overexposed. And some darker parts go very dark.

I've used two rolls of P30 last year and just got three new ones in. In a way it is terrible when you can't avoid contrast. But I did get some decent images and some of them look really nice. Quite different to what I'm used to. I'm not sure what it is. Perhaps too much macro contrast for some scenes, but at times a very smooth contrast/gradation/texture in more localised parts of the image?

There have been a lot of terrible images of P30 out there, but not all of them are extremely overcooked.

I managed some decent wet prints, a little dodge/burn will be necessary. Now that I have a Heiland split grade I might get better results with it, quicker than before (time constrained in the darkroom, unfortunately). I want to do some sensitometry with one roll. With its very fine grain I'm thinking about mixing up some FX 1 developer, which I have never done before, and see if a compensating non-solvent developer might be working well with it.

Here is a scene from Firenze, almost too late in the day for hand held exposure. Wide open, or almost, at E.I. 80, developed in D96 (home brew). It is a digitised negative, I don't have a print of that one. At least not a digitised one. The building on the left is orange-red. The bricks on the right are more brown-red, maybe with dirty yellowish ones in there as well. I found the scene on Google maps to compare. The roof of the cupola is reddish, as well (Duomo of Firenze). The wolfs, from a Chinese artist, have a red-brown, glossy patina.

In the detail picture you can see signs to the left and right of the monument. The round bit in the left one is blue and the diagonal strike through is red and rendered very dark. The no parking sign should be blue inside with a red ring around, which is what they generally are like in Europe. Again the red here is very dark. Perhaps the film simply cuts off earlier in the reds than other pancro films but not quite as extreme as an ortho film.

 

[pentaxuser]

Watching Raging Bull won't tell you much about P30 since it was shot on Kodak Double-X. You'll need to watch a Fellini film like La dolce Vita or 8½. I am not sure how you will know what objects are red in the film, unless perhaps you are familiar with Italian road signs from the early 1960s.

True. All bets are off if it's not P30 that was used for Raging Bull as I understood AZD to have meant when he mentioned it

pentaxuser