B&H Lists XTOl (5L) as Discontinued

[koraks]

That's the same complex Hc-110 used to have.

And it was never part of xtol. Neither is xtol a 2-part developer - another detail mentioned in the patent. There's an extensive list of differences between the patent you linked to and xtol.

Anyway, for some reason you're painting yourself into a corner where an xtol clone cannot exist (several are available) or couldn't perform as the original (several do). That's your loss, not anyone else's.

 

[Anon Ymous]

Neither is xtol a 2-part developer

Well, it comes in two bags, so you can call it a two part developer. But not two different solutions...

 

[Donald Qualls]

Homebrewing the exact replica of Xtol is nearly impossible due to the presence of Diethanolamine (with 16%
sulfur dioxide)

Isn't that HC-110? Diethanolamine (regardless of SO2 content) is a liquid, Xtol comes as two bags of powder...

 

[Donald Qualls]

People who have used Mytol (I haven't) report that it behaves identically to Xtol for all intents and purposes.

Except that, without the sequestrant that protects the ascorbate from iron and copper ions, it's prone to sudden failure due to Fenton's reaction if stored.

 

[Donald Qualls]

The patent lists also for a liquid version

Pretty sure there's no diethanolamine in the version that went to market, though.

 

[retina_restoration]

I've been using "Mytol" as a substitute for Xtol (I will no longer buy Sino Promise chemistry because of the multiple eff-ups they made with it) and I can report that in spite of the differences in make-up, they are - for practical purposes - identical in behavior. You just cannot store the home-made version for much more than a week, due to the fact that it lacks the sequestrants. Once you recognize that fact, there's no reason not to make your own - just don't expect to store it for much more than a week.

I don't see the point in dissing "Mytol" when suggesting it as an alternative to packaged Xtol, except as a subject for unendling, fruitless argument.

 

[Craig]

Pretty sure there's no diethanolamine in the version that went to market, though.

Not surprising, as there is none listed in the claims. I can see there is little knowledge of patents here, as only what is recited in the claims has any legal protection. Everything else is backup material for the claims.

When you read a patent, read claim 1 first. That's the heart of the invention and what is really important. You can only sue someone for infringement of what is in the claims, the inventor can write anything they want in the rest of the sections.

 

[SodaAnt]

Except that, without the sequestrant that protects the ascorbate from iron and copper ions, it's prone to sudden failure due to Fenton's reaction if stored.

My practice is to make up whatever I need for the current session, use it, and discard it. I never store developer/stop/fixer that I make from scratch.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I never store developer/stop/fixer that I make from scratch.

Surely good practice for anything ascorbate based. I make my own Parodinal and have stored it up to a year (may keep longer, I used it up at that point) and make my own D-23 and DK-25R and replenish for months on end; these don't have anything particularly sensitive in them, but do have lots of sulfite to preserve them against the limited exposure they get to air.

 

[Roger Cole]

Yes, an exact replica of Xtol cannot be done diy, I stand by that, because as you've said,
There's an extensive list of differences between the patent you linked to and xtol. So an exact replica cannot be done using the patent per se.
It's not even a personal loss since I use primarily Ilford Ilfosol 3.
You know, when it comes to precious images a I won't use anything that is not reliable.
The Kodak chemistry demise is a loss for the entire community.

Kodak color chemistry is a loss, especially with all the other makers dropping too. Black and white? Nah. I could do just fine never using another Kodak chemical in my life for black and white and my results would not suffer in the slightest. Heck, I could do just fine with black and white mixing ALL of my stuff from scratch without results suffering. I won't unless I eventually have to because it's just more trouble than it's worth for the many things you can buy pre-mixed at reasonable prices, but I certainly could.

When Xtol came out I got burned by the early problems with "sudden death syndrome" of some of the packaging I think, and lost some valuable shots, and I've not tried it since though I know they fixed that issue. I suppose I should, maybe - that is, one of the clones.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Honestly, I could do well enough for life with D-23 and Parodinal (and the occasional Caffenol derivative), but as noted, it's convenient to be able to get 5L of stock solution for under $20.

Color worries me a little -- but if it comes to it, I'll learn wet plate.

 

[Film-Niko]

Kodak color chemistry is a loss, especially with all the other makers dropping too.

Color chemistry isn't a real problem. Fuji Hunt is continuing production, and the quality is perfect. All the labs I know are using it.
Furthermore you have Bellini, Chugai, Calbe and at least one producer in the US, who is producing for brands like Cinestill.
And who knows, maybe in the future ADOX will enter that market as well.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Fuji Hunt is continuing production, and the quality is perfect.

Is there a US source for 5L or smaller batches of Fuji Hunt chemistry? I understood it was much easier/possible to get in Europe but even there only in 20L size...

 

[Film-Niko]

Color chemistry isn't a real problem. Fuji Hunt is continuing production, and the quality is perfect. All the labs I know are using it.
Furthermore you have Bellini, Chugai, Calbe and at least one producer in the US, who is producing for brands like Cinestill.
And who knows, maybe in the future ADOX will enter that market as well.

I forgot the name of the company in the US, but remembered it again:

Graphic Chemicals, Chemical Manufacturing | Dexter, MI

Find the graphic chemicals you need to get the job done from our Dexter, MI-based company. We specialize in chemical manufacturing and serve clients worldwide.

www.photosys.com

 

[Film-Niko]

Is there a US source for 5L or smaller batches of Fuji Hunt chemistry? I understood it was much easier/possible to get in Europe but even there only in 20L size...

In Europe you can get the 5L Fuji Hunt C-41 kits.
And the Jobo 2.5L kits for E6, C-41 and ECN-2.
Bellini kits for 1L E6 and the Cinestill E6 kits.
Bellini C-41 1L kits, Cinestill C-41 kit and Compard C-41 kits (which were at least in the past just rebottled from Fuji bulk C-41 minilab chemistry).
In general any trustworthy US film photo distributor should be able to import kits from Jobo or Bellini or Fuji Hunt.

 

[Donald Qualls]

any trustworthy US film photo distributor should be able to import kits from Jobo or Bellini or Fuji Hunt.

Able and willing aren't always the same, though. Minimums, margins, shelf life, all boil down to only one brand of mini-lab stuff at any given dealer, and scarcity of mini-labs at this late date reduce the number of dealers willing to deal with it.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I just checked with LTI Lightside an NYC pro lab that uses XTOL and they told me they still have and will continue to use it. I couldn't get an answer to what they'll switch to when they run out.

 

[Film-Niko]

Able and willing aren't always the same, though. Minimums, margins, shelf life, all boil down to only one brand of mini-lab stuff at any given dealer, and scarcity of mini-labs at this late date reduce the number of dealers willing to deal with it.

The US market is definitely bigger than e.g. the market in the UK, France or Germany. So as it is possible in these much smaller markets, I don't see a reason why it should not work in the USA.

 

[Donald Qualls]

One reason I can think of, @Film-Niko is contracts. American distributors are likely to be locked into contracts with Kodak (that transferred to Sino-Promise) that forbid them selling a competing product. Contracts running back to the days when Kodak was the powerhouse of all photography.

 

[Film-Niko]

One reason I can think of, @Film-Niko is contracts. American distributors are likely to be locked into contracts with Kodak (that transferred to Sino-Promise) that forbid them selling a competing product. Contracts running back to the days when Kodak was the powerhouse of all photography.

Hm, I am not a lawyer, but if one of the parties don't fulfil the contract anymore - in this case Sino Promise Holdings, they stopped supplying the products - than the other contract partner is not obliged to the contract anymore.

 

[koraks]

And who knows, maybe in the future ADOX will enter that market as well.

They already sell home kits for RA4. I don't know who manufactures it, but at least they sell it with an ADOX label on it. No C41 or E6 so far, but who knows, one day.

 

[MattKing]

Hm, I am not a lawyer, but if one of the parties don't fulfil the contract anymore - in this case Sino Promise Holdings, they stopped supplying the products - than the other contract partner is not obliged to the contract anymore.

Kodak Alaris was assigned the marketing and distribution rights for the Kodak branded photochemical business. They owned those rights.
Sino Promise bought those rights from Kodak Alaris. They now own those rights.
If you own those rights, you own the right to not produce the product.
What is critically important to understand though, is that the Covid related disruption affected Sino Promise's distribution business as much or more than their manufacturing. What we see now might be almost entirely related to distribution issues.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Hm, I am not a lawyer, but if one of the parties don't fulfil the contract anymore - in this case Sino Promise Holdings, they stopped supplying the products - than the other contract partner is not obliged to the contract anymore.

The restrictive contracts, however, produced an environment where a lot of consumers think Kodak is the only option, and if they can't get it, they don't even know to look for something else. Some distributors seem to have just dropped carrying color chemistry rather than doing the work to switch suppliers -- which they may see as likely to be wasted effort if/when Fuji also drops out of the game.

 

[faberryman]

The restrictive contracts, however, produced an environment where a lot of consumers think Kodak is the only option, and if they can't get it, they don't even know to look for something else.

Really? Photographers don't know there are other black and white developers? That doesn't sound plausible.

Some distributors seem to have just dropped carrying color chemistry rather than doing the work to switch suppliers -- which they may see as likely to be wasted effort if/when Fuji also drops out of the game.

Probably because there is so little demand for it.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Probably because there is so little demand for it.

Exactly. For B&W, I agree, it's a far journey from my childhood when I didn't even know there was another source of B&W materials than Kodak (and the only other color was Agfa), but color has never been a huge amateur home processing market.