B&H Lists XTOl (5L) as Discontinued

[John Wiegerink]

Steven, thank you very much for mentioning my test results.
For all who are interested in it, here it is:

ADOX XT-3 Developer: Further and Final Test Results

Dear photrio-members, as some of you may remember, some months ago I have reported about my ADOX XT-3 test results. Since then I have done several further very detailed tests with the currently available, final XT-3 version with CAPTURA. In total I have done so much intensive/detailed tests...

www.photrio.com

I would be very cautious with such a conclusion. Because ADOX has indeed put quite a lot of effort and additional R&D in its XT-3.



That is completely understandable.
I also much prefer buying from companies I know, which are transparent and communicate with me as a customer in an honest way.
And all that is the case with ADOX.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning,
It was your test results that made me try Adox XT-3, and I'm glad I did. I'm using it the same way I used Xtol, as a replenished developer. Everything seems fine so far.

 

[mshchem]

Ecopro is a product of Freestyle's distribution division, these guys have been around for decades, I have used Ecopro on occasions, looks identical to XTOL, beautiful free flowing white crystals. Like XTOL you need to stir and stir, I have a variable speed propeller mixer

XT3 is nice stuff, yet to understand long-term storage of the powder, Adox needs to make this available at B&H, I'm not going to air freight developer 8,000 miles

 

[Henning Serger]

Henning,
It was your test results that made me try Adox XT-3, and I'm glad I did. I'm using it the same way I used Xtol, as a replenished developer. Everything seems fine so far.

Thanks, John!
I am glad to hear my tests have been helpful for you .

Best regards,
Henning

 

[retina_restoration]

XT3 is nice stuff, yet to understand long-term storage of the powder, Adox needs to make this available at B&H, I'm not going to air freight developer 8,000 miles

Freestyle typically stocks it, though it's sold out right now (Restock in about 2 weeks, they say): https://www.freestylephoto.com/67116-Adox-XT-3-Film-Developer-To-Make-5000ml-5L

 

[mshchem]

Thanks, John!
I am glad to hear my tests have been helpful for you .

Best regards,
Henning

Henning, not to derail this thread. Do you have any updates on Tetenal? Also there's been concerns about Ilford, any news??
Best Regards Mike

 

[Craig]

It's illegal

How so? Any patents Kodak may have had have long since expired.

 

[Henning Serger]

Henning, not to derail this thread. Do you have any updates on Tetenal? Also there's been concerns about Ilford, any news??
Best Regards Mike

Hello Mike,

I can confirm what Mirko had recently written here about that topic.
Currently it looks like Tetenal will be history, unfortunately. But:
Nevertheless I am quite optimistic that the main - and for us film photographers most important product groups made by Tetenal - will come back to the market. Mainly by three very well reputed and long established German companies. They will fill the gap.
Some product (groups) will be offered by them in the short term, others may take a bit longer and will be offered in the mid-term.
Concerning photo processing chemicals I have always been relatively relaxed (the biggest problems for film are in other areas).
And I stay relatively relaxed.......

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Craig]

Did the Xtol patent expire already?

Yes, 7 years ago.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Since there isn't a public formula of the exact Xtol, it's meaningless to home brew it because it will not be Xtol,

And more importantly, without the sequestrants in the commercial products (original and clones and work-alikes) you can expect poor stock solution life and/or sudden failure from Fenton's reaction. Randomly (seeming) and without warning.

 

[retina_restoration]

And more importantly, without the sequestrants in the commercial products (original and clones and work-alikes) you can expect poor stock solution life and/or sudden failure from Fenton's reaction. Randomly (seeming) and without warning.

I would think that at this point, anyone making home-brew "Xtol" knows that they've got a few days to use it before it expires.

 

[Anon Ymous]

And more importantly, without the sequestrants in the commercial products (original and clones and work-alikes) you can expect poor stock solution life and/or sudden failure from Fenton's reaction. Randomly (seeming) and without warning.

The sequestrant is DTPA-5Na. Sourcing it could prove difficult, but it's not impossible. I have used the original product and the patent formula, with or without a sequestrant. I never had it fail on me. For the record, I always use deionised water.

 

[Roger Cole]

Since there isn't a public formula of the exact Xtol, it's meaningless to home brew it because it will not be Xtol, nor Foma Excel is, nor Adox Xt-3 is.
Xtol is only Kodak Xtol.

The fact it may not be identical (OTOH it just might be - if the formula isn't published you can't be sure another ones ISN'T the same either) certainly doesn't make mixing your own "meaningless." Mix up some developer, test it a bit and use it. It means you have working film developer.

 

[Roger Cole]

"Substitute" is not the same as "exact equivalent". It's very meaningful to use an acceptable substitute for a product if such is available. It appears that for the vast majority of users, there are reasonable substitutes for genuine XTOL. There's nothing 'meaningless' about it.

I find the word choice 'meaningless' in the way you use it here unnecessarily provoking and argumentative. There's no need for it.

Yup. Should have read this before I posted but I think I'll leave my post and not delete it. It certainly isn't "meaningless."

 

[SodaAnt]

It's illegal

It's not illegal to determine the formula of a developer (or anything, really). Patents only cover sales of patented items, not determining their composition.

Xtol was covered by U.S. patent 5853964, which expired in 2016, so anyone is free to use anything covered by that patent in their own products.

Kodak probably would have had difficulty enforcing that patent, however, as there was prior art covering ascorbic acid developers a few decades before Kodak's patent was issued.

 

[koraks]

It's illegal

It isn't. Doing analysis on a competitor's product is perfectly legal, unless:
1: Legally protected technology is gleaned from the analysis and used unlicensed in own products. In this case, the analysis as such is not illegal. The use of the knowledge accrued by it, is.
2: The entity has already entered a non-analysis agreement with the competitor and the analysis violates this agreement.

 

[MattKing]

It's not illegal to determine the formula of a developer (or anything, really). Patents only cover sales of patented items, not determining their composition.

Xtol was covered by U.S. patent 5853964, which expired in 2016, so anyone is free to use anything covered by that patent in their own products.

Kodak probably would have had difficulty enforcing that patent, however, as there was prior art covering ascorbic acid developers a few decades before Kodak's patent was issued.

Any patent probably relates mostly to the parts of the developer that result in it being stable and long lasting both in the package and after being mixed up, and/or being usable in a replenishment regime - in other words, the characteristics of X-Tol that differentiate it from previous ascorbic acid developers.

 

[Craig]

As a general note, patents are creations of domestic law. That means that if I have a patent in Country A, anyone is completely free to make, use or sell the invention in any country except country A.

 

[SodaAnt]

Homebrewing the exact replica of Xtol is nearly impossible due to the presence of Diethanolamine (with 16%
sulfur dioxide)

Homebrewing an exact replica is often not necessary because some of the harder to obtain components are used to prolong the life of the mixed developer. If you’re mixing the developer and using it right away, you don’t need some of the components that aren’t part of the actual development process.

When I mix up a batch of D-23, I only make enough for my immediate needs. One could do the same with homebrew Xtol.

 

[SodaAnt]

As a general note, patents are creations of domestic law. That means that if I have a patent in Country A, anyone is completely free to make, use or sell the invention in any country except country A.

You’re generally free to make and use a patented invention as long as you don’t sell it, even in country A in your example.

 

[Paul Howell]

Ecopro is a product of Freestyle's distribution division, these guys have been around for decades, I have used Ecopro on occasions, looks identical to XTOL, beautiful free flowing white crystals. Like XTOL you need to stir and stir, I have a variable speed propeller mixer

XT3 is nice stuff, yet to understand long-term storage of the powder, Adox needs to make this available at B&H, I'm not going to air freight developer 8,000 miles

So, looking at Freestyle's online catalog Ecopro version of Xtol references Kodak, of course don't know how close Ecopro version is to Kodak's, does it keep as well as Xtol?

 

[SodaAnt]

In this case diethanolamine-SO2 serves: "two purposes. One is to act as a source of alkali and the other is to act as a silver halide solvent. It is often balanced by the use of Tri Ethanol amine in a weak analogy to Carbonate - Bicarbonate buffer mixtures." (Ron Mowrey).
That's the same complex Hc-110 used to have.

There are alternatives. Mytol, for example, uses sodium sulfite and sodium metaborate for this function. People who have used Mytol (I haven't) report that it behaves identically to Xtol for all intents and purposes.

I use D-23 for all my film developing, but I plan to mix up a batch of Mytol just to try it out. If it works well, I might switch.

 

[mshchem]

So, looking at Freestyle's online catalog Ecopro version of Xtol references Kodak, of course don't know how close Ecopro version is to Kodak's, does it keep as well as Xtol?

I'm not sure about Ecopro longevity, I mixed up a batch a couple months back, I'm going to run a very uncontrolled trial with Ecopro and XTOL. I have some XT3 mixed as well, it's super easy to mix, looks like lemonade, lovely yellow, not brown.

 

[Anon Ymous]

This is https://patents.google.com/patent/US5853964A/en the Xtol patent page
The patent expired in 2016.
Homebrewing the exact replica of Xtol is nearly impossible due to the presence of Diethanolamine (with 16%
sulfur dioxide)

The formula at example 1 preferred developing kit doesn't list any diethanolamine.

 

[jonathanchli]

The formula at example 1 preferred developing kit doesn't list any diethanolamine.

If I am not mistaken, Diethanolamine and Sulphur dioxide are found in the original, viscous version of Kodak HC-110

https://web.faa.illinois.edu/app/uploads/sites/6/2021/05/KODAK-%E2%80%93-HC110-Developer.pdf

 

[Anon Ymous]

If I am not mistaken, Diethanolamine and Sulphur dioxide are found in the original, viscous version of Kodak HC-110

https://web.faa.illinois.edu/app/uploads/sites/6/2021/05/KODAK-%E2%80%93-HC110-Developer.pdf

Yes, and examples 2 to 5 are "Aqueous Developing Compositions". Example 1 even mentions parts A and B (Dry Formulation).