Autochrome Latex

[jerry lebens]

Hello Jerry,

With great pleasure .
Perhaps is it Frédéric Mocellin ?

http://www.autochromes.fr/mocellinperso/index.html

Thank you in adavance.

Shaz

Oui, c'est lui. Je t'envoi s'addresse en message prive.

Jerry

 

[shaz]

ok , i'm gone write a mail to Frederic Mocellin. There is just one thing, Mr Mocellin don't use a glass for the Autochrome...he used polyester film.
And i'm not sure, but i read in the Lavedrine Book that they use Primal N580 for the first varnish. I call the society that make this product, but they just sell to industrie.
.
Perhpas he can tell me how he dyed the patatoe starch.

It's a good idea Jerry.

Best regards

Shaz

 

[holmburgers]

When I google "thin pale crepe latex" and look at the images, I see lots of special effects make up. Perhaps this is an industry that uses a lot of latex?

Check these: http://stageandtheatermakeup.com/effects.htm & http://stageandtheatermakeup.com/mhlatex.htm

 

[shaz]

Hello holmburgers,

The person that tell me to take pale latex crepe say that these product are not good.
If i put "Pale latex crepe" on internet i find this :

http://www.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http://img.alibaba.com/photo/112710474/Rubber_Sole_Crepe_Brown_Crepe_Thin_Thick_Crepe.jpg&imgrefurl=http://french.alibaba.com/product-free/rubber-sole-crepe-brown-crepe-thin-thick-crepe-112710474.html&usg=__5wAX1Qhnldn9wHZS1-yiNUA4eo4=&h=350&w=350&sz=26&hl=fr&start=0&sig2=-Gtq_t9QiHm1RPtQI5kJKg&zoom=1&tbnid=YC-9_Pd0QfBqVM:&tbnh=147&tbnw=147&ei=qO2ETYmCFc_fsgbj0d2tAw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpale%2Blatex%2Bcrepe%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dfr%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1151%26bih%3D732%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=286&vpy=66&dur=31&hovh=225&hovw=225&tx=129&ty=163&oei=qO2ETYmCFc_fsgbj0d2tAw&page=1&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0

It seems like for the shoe sole .
In the Lavedrine book, Lumière speak about little ball of latex. He wrote :

caoutchouc : Para Pur Plantation E ( Bergougnon )

Bergougnon :

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond-C%C3%A9lestin_Bergougnan

You can read at a moment :

He(It) makes Établissments Bergougnan a rival prosperous, big company(society) of Michelin



Shaz

 

[shaz]

Some friends come at home in a moment...at tomorrow

Shaz

 

[shaz]

Sorry holmburgers, i'm back,

The Lumières bought the latex to an enterprise that made tires. Incredible.

Shaz

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Shaz ,

I think this material is polyurethane , may be 100 years ago , this term was not known but I am quite sure that car tires made from this. Polyurethane business is one of the largest chemical industry in the world and this material is used from tires , to interior of the cars to seats to vitesse stick to lenses .
Polyurethane is the one of the best and cheapest heat insulator in the world .
You find it at olympic shoes to Nike to bows to your television monitor plastic.
Without knowing what you want exactly technically , you cant find what you want. There are zillions of different formulas.
I think you must define whatever you want specially and contact with may be BAYER. I was thinking to build boats from polyurethane foams and 1 liter liquid comes to 3 dollars and expands to 60 liters with catalyzer.

I think if you define what speciallities you want , BAYER helps you. I hope you know what is BAYER.

Umut

 

[Photo Engineer]

Here are some useful definitions and distinctions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_rubber

PE

 

[shaz]

Hello,

I know Bayer, it's a good idea to look in this way too.
Thank you for your link PE....it's interesting to read that with synthetic latex :

"latex is mostly polymerized isoprene with a small percentage of impurities in it."

Now i think that i have to start with something.

I will buy the Rubber cement and make my own resene. I will see what it will give. . If it's not good, i will have to begin again.

Shaz

 

[paul_c5x4]

Just a thought - How about using a clear masking fluid such as Winsor & Newton Masking Medium ?

 

[shaz]

Hello paul_c5x4,

Do you speak about this product exactly ? :

http://www.winsornewton.com/products.aspx?PageID=129

Shaz

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Good evening Shaz ,

I have not read any philosophy text in my life but I read that Culture is not about knowing something but to know where you can find the information you are looking for.
Ron , Photo Engineer posted at his posts , an experts name from Eastman House on Autochrome. Dont waste your energy to finding something which somebody already knows.
PM , Photo Engineer , find the e mail and directly post to him.

Second way is to find my Autochrome Recipe post and find the Woman Expert name there and ask to her.
Her e mail is already there.

Third , register to alt photo list , ask your books writers e mail address there. Contact with him.

Fourth , find the French Autochrome makers e mail address and contact with him.

I did four of them when I was studying the art , Did you read every post at APUG ?

It will save you from lots of trouble and posting here whatever you learned , will gain our knowledge.

Best ,

Umut

 

[shaz]

Good evening Umut,

Have you got the link of that woman ?
I have already read a lot on the forum but i didn't found the recipe. You know, for me it's hard to read all the posts in english, and the translator don't guve good translation.
You speack about the French Autochrome makers, do you speak about Frederic Mocellin ? If it's him, he use "Primal N 580". It's not like the recipe of Louis Lumière.

Best

Shaz

 

[shaz]

Louis Lumière write for the 1rst varnish :
Benzine 100 kg
caoutchouc 1,5 kg
Solution de résidu de dammar 5,6 lit

The "Benzine" is weighed and put in a mixer barrel in rotation. We put the latex and you mix untill complete dissolution, it takes 3 days. With pressure air you put in a reservoir and we put the damar wax. We filter this under pressure.
The first varnish viscosity is between 875 and 880.

Umut, someone have made this on the forum ?

Best

Shaz

 

[Photo Engineer]

In Chemistry, Benzine and Benzene are two vastly different chemical compounds. IDK how the French may differ, but I point this out as one of the difficulties in preparing an Autochrome. I might also mention that hand made Autochromes even by the Lumiere Brothers were not of high quality until they made it into a manufactured product. The hand made materials were reportedly far inferior. It was the scale up and automation that helped them reach the level of perfection that they finally reached.

BTW, the caoutchouc is the latex rubber. Dammar is a varnish.

PE

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Luisa Casella

Sherman Fairchild Center for Works on Paper and Photograph Conservation

The Metropolitan Museum of Art

1000 Fifth Avenue

New York, NY 10028-0198

T. +1 212 396 5524

F. +1 212 650 3811

E. luisa.casella xxxxxxxx metmuseum.org

Contact with her ! Than the Eastman House , than the book writer - Search at google , he is there - and the man who did autochrome at France.

Forget the book , you will never be able to do it with old recipes. These women and man knows how to do it with todays materials.

Umut

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

I received below mail from Luisa Casella from Metropolitan Museum of Art.


Luisa Casella

Sherman Fairchild Center for Works on Paper and Photograph Conservation

The Metropolitan Museum of Art

1000 Fifth Avenue

New York, NY 10028-0198

T. +1 212 396 5524

F. +1 212 650 3811

E. luisa.casella xxxxxxxx metmuseum.org


APPENDIX I: PREPARATION OF THE LAYERS1



Selecting the starch grains

Autochrome starch grains were in the range of 10 to 20 microns in diameter. Resolution of the image is not critical for the present experiment. A separation by flotation will be done to avoid larger grains2.

Fill a large container with 2 liters of distilled water and 75 grams of potato starch.

Stir vigorously. Allow it to set for 15 minutes. The majority of grains are deposited in the bottom, while the smaller particles remain in suspension. Using a plastic tube, siphon the intermediate layer as best as possible (avoiding being to close to the top or the bottom).

Filter this solution using a Büchner funnel covered with filter paper, recovering a few grams of starch grains. Rinse these in ethanol and air dry.

After dry, gently pestle the grains in a mortar to separate lumps.


Tinting of starch grains:

Dilution of the dyes in distilled water will be done according to original dilutions in autochrome plates:


Orange-red grains:

Distilled water – 100 ml

Erythrosine – 14,5 g

Rose Bengal – 2,6 g

Tartrazine – 19,7 g

Green grains:

Distilled water - 100 ml

Ammonia - 9 g

Tartrazine - 21 g

Patent Blue - 10 g

Sodium Sulfate - 21 g

Violet-blue grains:

Distilled water - 100 ml

Crystal Violet - 7 g

Malachite Green - 1 g


Tartrazine was used in different concentrations both in the orange-red (19,7g) and in the green grains (21g); the concentration for this experiment will therefore be the approximate average - 20g.

In the case of the dyes present in the green dye (tartrazine and the patent blue) ammonia and sodium sulfate are added so the ionic environment provided by the starch would adsorb the colors.


Tinting:

The selected starch grains are mixed to its mass equivalent in dye-saturated solution.

The solutions so far are:

1.

100 ml water

Erythrosine – 14,5 g

2.

100 ml water

Rose Bengal – 2,6 g

3.

100 ml water

Tartrazine - 20 g

Ammonia - 9 g

Sodium Sulfate - 21 g

4.

100 ml water

Patent Blue - 10 mg

Ammonia - 9 g

Sodium Sulfate - 21 g

5.

100 ml water

Crystal Violet - 7 g

6.

100 ml water

Malachite Green - 1 g


The ratio in the original recipe was of starch to dye is:

- 2,3g dye to 3g starch for the orange (Erythrosine, Rose Bengal, Tartrazine)

- 2,24g to 3g starch for the green (Patent Blue, Tartrazine)

- 2,25g dye to 3 g starch for the blue-violet (Crystal Violet, Malachite Green)


In the present experiment the dyes are individually added to the starch. The ratio will be maintained as above, except for Tartrazine of which an average value will be used (2,27g).


Stir the mix for 30 minutes to one hour until there are no white starch grains. This is done at room temperature, except for Crystal Violet and Malachite Green which need to be at 30°C using a double-boiler. Strain the solution through Whatman filter paper and air dry.


Preparation of Varnish Layers

First varnish:

Toluene - 100 g (87 ml)
Natural rubber - 1,5 g
Dissolve the rubber in toluene for 24 hours.

Add:

5,6 ml of the 10% solution of dammar residue in toluene (see second varnish) - this solution is obtained from the mixture described in the second varnish (ethyl acetate and dammar) after rinsing with 60ml of ether and let dry. Make a 10% solution in toluene3.


Second varnish: 4

In a container, add:

Ethyl acetate – 300 ml
Dammar gum – 28,8 g
Let dissolve for 24 hours, stirring occasionally. An insoluble residue is left in the bottom. Recover this residue using filter paper. Use the residue for first varnish.

Add to the filtered solution:

7,2g nitrocellulose
Stir until complete dissolution (few days) and add:

Castor oil – 4,536 g
Strain using filter paper.





APPENDIX II: INFORMATION ON DYES USED FOR THE EXPERIMENT



1.

CI #: 19140

Name: Tartrazine

Family: Azo

Other Names: Acid Yellow 23

CAS#: 1934-21-0

Supplier: Fluka/ Sigma-Aldrich

Name given by supplier: Tartrazine

Solubility: 0.5gr/ 10ml*


2.

CI #: 42025

Name: Malachite Green Ortho-chlorinated

Family: Triarylmethane

Other Names: Setoglaucin, Basic Blue 1

CAS#: None

Supplier: Salor/ Sigma-Aldrich

Name given by supplier: Rhoduline Blue 6G

Solubility: No known value*


3.

CI #: 42051

Name: Patent Blue

Family: Triarylmethane

Other Names: Acid Blue 3

CAS#: 3536-49-0

Supplier: Fluka/ Sigma-Aldrich

Name given by supplier: Patent Blue V calcium salt

Solubility: Water soluble*










4.

CI #: 42555

Name: Crystal Violet

Family: Triarylmethane

Other Names: Basic Violet 3

CAS#: 548-62-9

Supplier: SIAL/ Sigma-Aldrich

Name given by supplier: Crystal Violet

Solubility: 0.01-0.1gram/ 100 ml at 15.5°C*


5.

CI #: 45430

Name: Erythrosine

Family: Xanthene

Other Names: Acid Red 51

CAS#: 568-63-8

Supplier: National Aniline & Chemical Co.

Name given by supplier: Erythrosin, Bluish (Iodin Eosin)


6.

CI #: 45440

Name: Rose Bengal

Family: Xanthene

Other Names: Acid Red 94

CAS#: 632-69-9

Supplier: Aldrich/ Sigma-Aldrich

Name given by supplier: Rose Bengal

Solubility: 100mg/ ml*




*Data provided by Sigma-Aldrich technical services based on their experiments.

Filter
Dye
C.I. Number
Other Names
Appearance

Orange-red
Erythrosine B
45430
Acid Red 51
Yellow

Rose Bengal
45440
Acid Red 94
Magenta

Tartrazine*
19140
Acid Yellow 23
Red

Green
Patent Blue
42051
Acid Blue 3
Blue

Tartrazine*
19140
Acid Yellow 23
Red

Violet-blue
Crystal Violet
42555
Basic Violet 3
Purple

Setoglaucine or Malachite Green Orthochlorinated
42025
Basic Blue 1
Blue

* Tartrazine was used both in the red-orange and the green

 

[shaz]

I read in your post the same things i read in the book. There is nothing different.
She don't give the name of the latex. What is the name of the latex ? Where can we see her Autochrome please ?
Where can we see pictures of someone who begin to make autochrome ?

For me, we have to make the most like the book. . Perhaps i'm wrong.

Best

Shaz

 

[holmburgers]

Interesting about selecting the starch grains.. How though, does one get a perfect layer of only one starch grain? Is that not the most important part of the autochrome? Any starch grain size would work to some extent, and any suitable dye could be used.

Shaz, continue at your own pace and you will find success.

 

[shaz]

Hello holmburgers,

Yes it is really interesting. I saw on internet a 20 microns sieve for 50 euros. I can't buy it for the moment and i hope it will stay for sale until i get the money.

For the latex, , i read something other there is ten minute in the Lavedrine Book. Something that it was really hard to read...Mr Louis Lumière had not a good write .... He wrote :

The special Latex is ""Fouta"" choose among the most white ball specially prepared by Bergougnan.

Fouta is in Africa if i'm right. Fouta-Djalon. I say that just for the story...and i found on internet a text in french..it's write that in 1900 the tire was made with this latex.
Certainly not all the tire.... .

I will try like i think like you say holmburgers. . Normally tomorrow i'm gone buy the latex ADS. I know that it's not the best latex but i say to this enterprise that i will buy their latex.

Best

Shaz

 

[shaz]

Hello,

My firts product for the autochrome :

Dead Link Removed

Microscope, black of fume, damar gum.
I am waiting for the "Sanford rubber cement". And it miss me to begin the second varnish, "Toluène", "Ethyle acétate" and...Louis Lumière call this (in french) : "filtre étoffe". If someone have an idea about this "filtre étoffe" don't hesiate to tell me.

Here is for the moment.

Shaz

 

[holmburgers]

Awesome Shaz. And a Leitz no less! Sure is pretty...

Filtre étoffe, is it just "filter fabric"? Or is this the sieve for starch grains?

 

[shaz]

Hello Holmburgers,

Yes, for the Leitz i have a lot of luck i know . But it's not my .
"Filtre étoffe" is not for the patatoe starch...it's for filter the damar gum after have it dissolve in the Ethyle Acétate. It's for keep the wax of damar gum in this filter. It must resist to the acétate éthyle ... I don't know if the ethyle acétate is agressive.

Shaz

 

[holmburgers]

Ah ok, that makes sense. But good luck, I have no idea!

 

[shaz]

Ok holmburgers...I keep on searching.

Shaz