Autochrome Latex

[shaz]

I found this on internet but i don't understand all :

Crepes
Pale crepe rubber is among the highest quality crepes. Coagulation of this high-quality natural rubber is achieved with sodium hydrogen sulfite (NaHSO3). The clean coagulum is washed and milled. This produces sheets between 1.2 and 1.5 mm thick and 24 cm wide. The washing process removes from the coagulum considerable amounts of the serum constituents which can cause rotting. The sheets are dried in drying rooms for 2.5 to 4 days at 37°C or air-dried for 5 to 10 days on drying floors.

Excessive temperatures lead to discolored patches in the sheets as a result of oxidation. The sheets are packed as bales and marketed as "thin pale crepe".

The 10-mm crepe from Sri Lanka is marketed as "thick pale crepe".


Sheets
Two different types of sheets are distinguished:
ADS (air dried sheets)
Air dried sheets are less common. They have an appearance similar to RSS (ribbed smoked sheets), but are more transparent, as they are manufactured in smoke-free rooms.

RSS (ribbed smoked sheets) (see Figure 1)
The fresh latex is diluted to a rubber content of 15 - 16% and coagulated in coagulation tanks using formic acid or acetic acid. Lumps of coagulum are formed after the acid has acted for 3-4 hours. After milling and washing, sheets between 2.5 and 3.5 mm thick, 24 cm wide and 90 or 135 cm in length are produced. The final mill is an embossed mill, which gives the sheets their ribbed structure. Since these rubber sheets are not washed as intensively as crepes, they contain a higher proportion of serum constituents which encourage mold and rotting. For this reason, the sheets undergo an additional preservation process in which they are smoked in smokehouses. The sheets are hung in the smokehouses and dried for a week at temperatures up to 60°C. The smoke resulting from burning Hevea (rubber tree) wood and other organic materials such as coconut husks preserves the sheets. The specific smell of these sheets is caused by the materials used to produce the smoke. The sheets are pressed into bales and wrapped in protective sheets. The surface is protected from oxidation by application of a bale coating solution and talcum.


Can you tell me if there is a big différence between the two rubber.
If there is a big difference i must keep on searching and forget the ADS latex

Thank you in advance.

Shaz

 

[shaz]

I tried to translate and i think that there is a big difference....they speak about "rotting" for the ADS...
I have to keep on searching for Pale latex crepe. .

Shaz

 

[holmburgers]

I found this on internet but i don't understand all...

Where did you find this? How old is it?

I don't understand it either, but basically it explains two modes of rubber production(?). This is all very fascinating, but I'm having troubling understanding where it fits into the autochrome.

Ok... here's what I found to give some background for those as clueless as me...

Smoked rubber: a type of crude natural rubber in the form of brown sheets obtained by coagulating latex with an acid, rolling it into sheets, and drying over open wood fires. It is the main raw material for natural rubber products Also called ribbed and smoked sheet. Compare crepe rubber

Crepe rubber: a type of crude natural rubber in the form of colourless or pale yellow crinkled sheets, prepared by pressing bleached coagulated latex through corrugated rollers: used for the soles of shoes and in making certain surgical and medical goods Sometimes shortened to crepe. Compare smoked rubber

 

[shaz]

Here is the link :

http://www.tis-gdv.de/tis_e/ware/kautschuk/naturkautschuk/naturkautschuk.htm

.

For the Autochrome, we need the best rubber....we need pale latex crepe.

Shaz

 

[holmburgers]

I think that trying to recreate the Autochrome step by step, material by material, will only result in many of these ------->

I suggest that you become OK with the idea of using alternative materials, because truth-be-told, the Lumiere's picked the best materials that they had access to and so should you.

Best luck, chin up!

 

[shaz]

I know that it will be a long way...perhaps today i am like this ------> but i know that tomorrow i will be like this------> .

I have again a lot of phone numbers...and i will keep on searching.

Anyway, i will make the first experiences with the latex ADS if i don't find crepe for the moment.

You're right, chin up . Tomorrow i phone to other enterprises.

Shaz

 

[holmburgers]

Well, at least you have an excellent attitude!

 

[shaz]

Yes i'm not discouraged, today a photograph (the same who got panchromatic emulsion) who allready try to make Autochrome tell me about a varnish for the second varnish. He said to try a varnish for picture board, the name is :

special fine varnish for picture board from "Sennelier" .

Inside there is damar gum, ethyle acetate...but something replace the 2 others...i don't have again translate in english

Thank you for your support Holmburgers

Shaz

 

[shaz]

Hello,

I have one question taday :
Do you know how is made "Rubber Cement" exactly ?
Perhaps someone on the forum use this glue and can tell me if it is perfectly tranparent and the composition.
I saw on internet that it is made with pure latex and toluene. Is there some other product in it ?

Thank you in advance.

Shaz

 

[holmburgers]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_cement

It's really smelly (huffably so), it's really tacky and we used it all the time in grade school. It is quite transparent.

Here are some pictures.... http://www.istockphoto.com/stock-photo-240706-dripping-rubber-cement.php
http://www.flickr.com/photos/breadofwonder/491930879/

update: Be advised... "Rubber cement is not considered an archivally sound adhesive and will cause deterioration of photographs and papers over time, a danger associated with many other common adhesives."

 

[shaz]

Hello holmburgers,

Perhaps, if you have this glue, you could tell me the composition. In Wikipedia they that it is made with pure latex and toluene. Can we believe what is write ? Perhaps it is different in the industrie ?
If there is only pure latex and toluene, perhaps i will just have to put the "resene" for make the first varnish.

Where do you found :
update: Be advised... "Rubber cement is not considered an archivally sound adhesive and will cause deterioration of photographs and papers over time, a danger associated with many other common adhesives."

Thank you for your help.

 

[goamules]

I wish you the best of luck and support your efforts. The Autochrome process cannot be too much more difficult Daguerreotype or Wetplate...I hope. I always wanted to look into it, but could find no one that had replicated the process. Maybe you'll be the first.

 

[holmburgers]

Shaz, the last line is in the wikipedia article. I dont' have any rubber cement unfortunately, and I don't think that the ingredients will be included on the label because they're not food (only foods need to disclose ingredients in the US... but maybe there is an MSDS somehwere?)

update: This might help? http://www.elmers.com/msds/me904.htm

 

[shaz]

Oh sorry holmburgers, it's all in english and it's hard for me to read all the article .

If i can't have the ingredient, then i will make some try.
Thank you for the last link. I will try to read all that i can "understand" .

One more time, thank you for all your help.


Shaz

 

[shaz]

Hello goamules,

I didn't have see your message. Thank you for your support too.
For the moment i try to make it like a puzzle. I don't know if it is a good idea...but i have to save up my money because i know that for sort out and dying the patatoe strach it will cost a lot. And no industrie can propose me an alternative.

Autochrome is really hard to reproduce if you want to make like the Lumières. Today i've read on the Lavédrine book the exercice book of Louis Lumiere and i can tell you that it reserve a lot of surprise. That's why i understand now that i have to found help from the industrie.

I found on this forum fantastic persons like holmburgers always ready to help me.

Shaz

 

[Photo Engineer]

My searches have found that this refers to the raw latex from the Rubber Tree. This liquid can be obtained unsmoked (as a liquid) or smoked (as a rubbery solid). The rubbery solid is (was) used to make automobile tires and dissolved in the proper solvents made up the original latex cements. The pure liquid latex was sold on the market years ago as a sort of glue as well.

Today, the entire science of Latices is a part of polymer science that involves making tailored latex compositions. The Autochromes probably used the original sap. It is akin to a sticky oil dispersed in water which dries down rather hard when all of the solvents evaporate. Since the particles don't like to coalesce in solution, you can make 3 color tinted latices and these can be combined without forming one large glob of material, but rather will remain separate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_rubber

PE

 

[shaz]

We can read that in the Wikipedia :

Rubber cement was invented by Paul Van Cleef in the early 1900s to be used in various applications in the Van Cleef Brothers factory in Chicago, Illinois

The date of 1900 correspond with the autochrome. Do you think that Louis Lumière was inspired by this ? Why not ! .

Shaz

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Shaz , Go to google translate and copy and paste the website link , select english to french.

Google is very successful to translate the western languages.

I hope this helps,

Umut

 

[holmburgers]

Avec plaisir! (? )

 

[shaz]

Hello PE and Umut,

Thank you Umut for this idea. I will make like this now, because it's really hard for me. .

PE : Someone ( ) tell me that i have to use "Pale latex Crepe". I know that i have to find this latex. On monday i have to go and buy Latex ADS. I know now that it's not the good latex. The person that give me the adress for the latex ADS is looking for some Pale latex crepe. I have to wait now.
But today i read the execice book of Louis Lumière and i saw that it's not impossible to make it myself, but if only i could found something allready made. I have to save my money. I read that you have to filter the latex with toluene with air pressure...you have to buy enamel bowl...and again and again...

Nice french Holmburgers.

It's not a story what i'm gone write now....
Last week my 80 years old Neighbor saw me with the Lavedrine book. He tell me that he had Autochrome plate with a picture allready take. he must found them. It is a sign...no !

Shaz

 

[Photo Engineer]

Shaz;

I believe that the words "non smoked" gives us the hint that Autochromes were made with original pure tree sap. The original latex from the reference I cited. Artificial latex manufacture really only started in the middle of the 20th century. Before that, it was all natural products.

PE

 

[Eric Rose]

Autochrome Latex, what's this the latest kinky stuff Sheen is into?

 

[shaz]

Hello,

I found this :

Crepes
Pale crepe rubber is among the highest quality crepes. Coagulation of this high-quality natural rubber is achieved with sodium hydrogen sulfite (NaHSO3). The clean coagulum is washed and milled. This produces sheets between 1.2 and 1.5 mm thick and 24 cm wide. The washing process removes from the coagulum considerable amounts of the serum constituents which can cause rotting. The sheets are dried in drying rooms for 2.5 to 4 days at 37°C or air-dried for 5 to 10 days on drying floors.

Excessive temperatures lead to discolored patches in the sheets as a result of oxidation. The sheets are packed as bales and marketed as "thin pale crepe".

The 10-mm crepe from Sri Lanka is marketed as "thick pale crepe".


Sheets
Two different types of sheets are distinguished:
ADS (air dried sheets)
Air dried sheets are less common. They have an appearance similar to RSS (ribbed smoked sheets), but are more transparent, as they are manufactured in smoke-free rooms.

RSS (ribbed smoked sheets) (see Figure 1)
The fresh latex is diluted to a rubber content of 15 - 16% and coagulated in coagulation tanks using formic acid or acetic acid. Lumps of coagulum are formed after the acid has acted for 3-4 hours. After milling and washing, sheets between 2.5 and 3.5 mm thick, 24 cm wide and 90 or 135 cm in length are produced. The final mill is an embossed mill, which gives the sheets their ribbed structure. Since these rubber sheets are not washed as intensively as crepes, they contain a higher proportion of serum constituents which encourage mold and rotting. For this reason, the sheets undergo an additional preservation process in which they are smoked in smokehouses. The sheets are hung in the smokehouses and dried for a week at temperatures up to 60°C. The smoke resulting from burning Hevea (rubber tree) wood and other organic materials such as coconut husks preserves the sheets. The specific smell of these sheets is caused by the materials used to produce the smoke. The sheets are pressed into bales and wrapped in protective sheets. The surface is protected from oxidation by application of a bale coating solution and talcum.

I am sure that i need the first one : the crepe.

I think that i'm gone try with this one first :

Dead Link Removed

Shaz

 

[jerry lebens]

Hi Shaz,

There's a french guy in Paris who has recreated the autochrome system - I spoke with him, via email, a couple of years ago. I don't have his details with me now but I should be able to find them when I return home.

Regards
Jerry

 

[shaz]

Hello Jerry,

With great pleasure .
Perhaps is it Frédéric Mocellin ?

http://www.autochromes.fr/mocellinperso/index.html

Thank you in adavance.

Shaz