Art photography according to curators...

[moose10101]

Let me tell you about Male Priviledge: I raised my son by myself, and never received so much as a cent in child support from his mother, because the local prosecutor at the time, a woman, simply refused to enforce child support orders against women. If I had been ordered to pay child support and didn't pay, I'd have been in prison.

Anecdotal evidence to the contrary, male privilege is widespread. Do you honestly think your situation isn't the exception?

 

[blockend]

Dividing a room into oppressors and victims is a terrible way to frame society. Some males are privileged, some are not. Some women are privileged, some are not. Attractive people are incredibly privileged compared to plain ones. Would we have beautiful people put a bag over their head to make the ugly ones feel less bad? Rich people give up their Leicas so iPhone photographers aren't jealous? I'm neither rich nor good looking.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Dividing a room into oppressors and victims is a terrible way to frame society. Some males are privileged, some are not. Some women are privileged, some are not. Attractive people are incredibly privileged compared to plain ones. Would we have beautiful people put a bag over their head to make the ugly ones feel less bad? Rich people give up their Leicas so iPhone photographers aren't jealous? I'm neither rich nor good looking.

I agree. Some people are natural leaders and will make more money than others. Some people are great actors or salespeople. Men and women like different types of jobs in many cases. We all have different qualities and we all serve a purpose to God. You don't have to be rich to be a good person or love and care for your family, male or female. We've gotten into a situation where we pit group against group. class against class, race against race, male vs. female. It's very destructive to society and to individuals.

 

[jtk]

I like women a great deal.

More women are better than fewer women. Picasso agreed..

From what I've heard, women enjoy some turnover, even until the end.

Women generally respect each other more than do men, so they don't whine as much as do men.

Men die 10 years younger than do women, which is a blessing to both.

Worthwhile men appreciate India Pale Ale and wide ranging conversations.

Women make better art critics than do men. Men are better at lifting heavy objects.

 

[Arthurwg]

Take for example Gursky, or the bullshit wanker known as Richard Prince. Gursky is big color, Prince is big bullshit. I'm far more concerned about the people who -do- take all the considerations and time in the world to iron out an idea that was poorly conceived in the first place. Let the bad ideas bleed quickly, so that the photographers/artists producing them can evolve their talent to a higher level.

I don't find Gursky very interesting, but I think you are wrong about Richard Prince. True, he's not much of a photographer, but he really is an excellent artist. I much prefer him to that female "wanker" Cindy Sherman, who makes me lose my cookies.

 

[removed account4]

but I think you are wrong about Richard Prince. True, he's not much of a photographer, but he really is an excellent artist.

i guess, if you call appropriating other people's work as his own art ?
he's the marlboro man guy and the person who published other people's instagram photos in an installation ( without their permission )?
i'd take absolutely anything cindysherman has done in the last IDK 50 years, her film untitled film stills to HER current instagram selfies included
if anyone's a w@n--er its someone who takes other people's work and claims it as their own ... sorry ...

 

[chriscrawfordphoto]

Anecdotal evidence to the contrary, male privilege is widespread. Do you honestly think your situation isn't the exception?

My situation is a fact. Male privilege is a marxist fantasy, nothing more. Even those promoting the concept largely know it is false; its simply a tool for political ends. The ones who actually believe it are what Lenin called the "useful idiots."

 

[Vaughn]

Dividing a room into oppressors and victims is a terrible way to frame society. Some males are privileged, some are not. Some women are privileged, some are not. Attractive people are incredibly privileged compared to plain ones. Would we have beautiful people put a bag over their head to make the ugly ones feel less bad? Rich people give up their Leicas so iPhone photographers aren't jealous? I'm neither rich nor good looking.

Unfortunately, 'priviledge' is different than you describe. All males have male priviledge. It has nothing to do with oppressors and victims. It has to do with societal habits that give advantage to males over females, reconizing them, and leveling the playing field. Common examples of male priviledge; being able to take a walk by yourself on the beach at night. Not having to think twice about getting on an elevator that has just a man in it. Having ones sexual health care coverage decided by ones own gender. Having your imput given greater consideration than women's at business meetings, and so on.

Denying or ignoring male priviledge is a terrible way to maintain our society...but very easy for males to do. The staus quo is fine and dandy, eh?

There are many types of piviledge based on a society's particular biases. The priviledge of the rich, and as you mentioned, of the beautiful. Even being tall has its priviledges, and I have had to learn how not to take too much advantage of it (mostly the ease of being able to command attention).

Male priviledge, like white priviledge, is of a different kind in that it is divided by gender, or by race in the latter. Both kinds need to be reconized for what they are...biases. They can cloud ones judgement and limit the opportunities of others.

I am reminded of a scene in the movie Money Ball. Baseball scouts were discussing a possible player -- who was looked upon negatively because he had an ugly wife. Obviously the player must have something wrong with him.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Unfortunately, 'priviledge' is different than you describe. All males have male priviledge. It has nothing to do with oppressors and victims. It has to do with societal habits that give advantage to males over females, reconizing them, and evening the playing field. Common examples of male priviledge; being able to take a walk by yourself on the beach at night. Not having to think twice about getting on an elevator that has just a man in it. Having ones sexual health care coverage decided by ones own gender. Having your imput given greater consideration than women's at business meetings, and so on.

Denying or ignoring male priviledge is a terrible way to maintain our society...but very easy for males to do. The staus quo is fine and dandy, eh?

Men and women are different physically and psychologically. That accounts for traditional responsibilities and authority at work and in the home that the sexes handle differently. Men have an advantage at work having competed there longer than women. On the other hand, women have more responsibility and authority in many cases at home where they control the rearing of children and keeping of the hearth. It's not as simple or as you make out or unfair.

 

[blockend]

All males have male priviledge.

That's palpably untrue. My father worked 12 hour shifts, five and a half days a week, alternate weeks of nights and days after he returned from military service in WW2. Shortly before he retired such work patterns were made illegal. Facing bullets in war was not optional, and his work alternatives were limited by a young family. Apart from war the society he lived was fairly stable, employment for men and women was plentiful (post WW2). Women walked unaccompanied through cities. Towns were well policed, homicide was rare enough to make front page news of national newspapers.

There are so many variables in privilege that to single out gender is to turn maleness into the secular version of original sin. By contrast my wife is a well remunerated professional. She is middle class, attractive, personable and dynamic. She works hard, and has raised a family while on the career ladder. By any metrics her opportunities are more open than mine, and way more than my father's. If we're to use identity politics as a standard, how about gay privilege (double income, no kids, preferential treatment in same sex companies), or female privilege (wider support network, the chance to stay at home and we well kept - especially if you're good looking), or black privilege in sports or any number of arbitrary ways in which human nature excels. It's just not healthy to promote group identities at the expense of individual difference. These are all indisputable, while recognising plenty of gay, female, black and indeed white males enjoy no such privileges.

 

[Vaughn]

Men and women are different physically and psychologically. That accounts for traditional responsibilities and authority at work and in the home that the sexes handle differently. Men have an advantage at work having competed there longer than women. On the other hand, women have more responsibility and authority in many cases at home where they control the rearing of children and keeping of the hearth. It's not as simple or as you make out or unfair.

Men and women are not that different. Using that excuse is an over-complication. And points to another male priviledge. Present work patterns, and business practises have been designed by and for a male workforce...thus, for example, the lack of constructively working maternity leave and child care into the business culture. Males have had the priviledge of not having to choose between a job or a family.

We are not talking about the world of the post-WWII when women were only given the right to vote a generation before, race laws still common, and we were the last ones standing strong economically after over a decade of world war. Since we cannot go back to that, society will need to adjust to the new concepts of equality that are evolving. Systems created in earlier times that have elements that favor one gender or race over others will slowly change. Reconizing male priviledge is part of that change -- not to punish men or lable them as oppressors, but to start the discussion about what the changes can and will be.

Fun fact: The f64 group was one of the first artist movements that included women as active members.

 

[blockend]

Reconizing male priviledge is part of that change -- not to punish men or lable them as oppressors, but to start the discussion about what the changes can and will be.

If you want to institute change, I suggest removing middle and upper class privilege is more likely to even out society than gender. Marxism has much to commend it, if you ignore all the places it's been tried.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Men and women are not that different. Using that excuse is an over-complication. And points to another male priviledge. Present work patterns, and business practises have been designed by and for a male workforce...thus, for example, the lack of constructively working maternity leave and child care into the business culture. Males have had the priviledge of not having to choose between a job or a family.

We are not talking about the world of the post-WWII when women were only given the right to vote a generation before, race laws still common, and we were the last ones standing strong economically after over a decade of world war. Since we cannot go back to that, society will need to adjust to the new concepts of equality that are evolving. Systems created in earlier times that have elements that favor one gender or race over others will slowly change. Reconizing male priviledge is part of that change -- not to punish men or lable them as oppressors, but to start the discussion about what the changes can and will be.

Fun fact: The f64 group was one of the first artist movements that included women as active members.

Most women would prefer being mothers and homemakers rather than having to compete in the workplace. Frankly, rearing children so they grow up healthy, educated and wise is more important than some job working for Macy's as a floor manager. Of course divorce has contributed to the need for women to work and punished children in the process. But that's another societal problem that people ignore. I agree that it's fair for people doing the same job should get paid the same. But there still has to be room to reward some people more regardless of sex for doing a better job within the same job title.

 

[moose10101]

My situation is a fact.

I have no doubt that it is. It's also very much an exception. And it's laughable that you call other people idiots, but can't see past your own situation and observe the advantage men are given in most situations.

 

[faberryman]

How did a thread about cropping become a diatribe on gender politics?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

How did a thread about cropping become a diatribe on gender politics?

Funny how that happens.

 

[dwross]

Most women would prefer being mothers and homemakers rather than having to compete in the workplace. Frankly, rearing children so they grow up healthy, educated and wise is more important than some job working for Macy's as a floor manager. Of course divorce has contributed to the need for women to work and punished children in the process. But that's another societal problem that people ignore. I agree that it's fair for people doing the same job should get paid the same. But there still has to be room to reward some people more regardless of sex for doing a better job within the same job title.

Can we agree that all that good people want is choice without artificial barriers? I'm as "feminist" as they come, and that's all I expect. My husband of 42 years agrees. He is also a feminist and as "manly" a primary breadwinner as they come. For discussion's sake, let's agree that most women would prefer being mothers and homemakers. I (and I suspect, you) have no idea if that's actually true, but let's go with that assumption. Women who don't want to be homemakers at any time, or before and after small children are at home, should have reasonable options for employment and life enrichment. This includes paychecks that are gender-blind.

One related item: the men I've known who have fully taken on the child-rearing role usually assigned to mothers are some the best parents I've known. They often run into sexism from both other men and some women. Embedded societal sexism isn't good for anyone.

 

[removed account4]

How did a thread about cropping become a diatribe on gender politics?

dude it was about how those women are running everything in the art world
not about cropping, get with the program !

 

[faberryman]

dude it was about how those women are running everything in the art world
not about cropping, get with the program !

Yeah, jumped threads. My mind is working even slower than usual this morning. I'll get another cup of coffee and try again.

 

[faberryman]

Well, someone has to decide what images go up on gallery walls. The gallery owners seem to be the logical choice to make those decisions. They are, after all, paying the rent, and relying on commissions to do so. If you don't like what they show, start your own gallery, or do whatever it is that art critics do to become art critics and get your message out. Maybe start with a photography as art blog. Sure beats sitting around whining about the status quo. And women.

 

[Vaughn]

Most women would prefer being mothers and homemakers rather than having to compete in the workplace. Frankly, rearing children so they grow up healthy, educated and wise is more important than some job working for Macy's as a floor manager. Of course divorce has contributed to the need for women to work and punished children in the process. But that's another societal problem that people ignore. I agree that it's fair for people doing the same job should get paid the same. But there still has to be room to reward some people more regardless of sex for doing a better job within the same job title.

I agree, many women feel that the traditional nuclear family is best for them...while realizing that many do not. Equal pay for equal work, and equal opportunity in society are worthwhile goals, and part of that is the elimination of artificial barriers.

Raising children is not women's work. It is the work of both parents and the society they belong in.

 

[Arthurwg]

i guess, if you call appropriating other people's work as his own art ?
he's the marlboro man guy and the person who published other people's instagram photos in an installation ( without their permission )?
i'd take absolutely anything cindysherman has done in the last IDK 50 years, her film untitled film stills to HER current instagram selfies included
if anyone's a w@n--er its someone who takes other people's work and claims it as their own ... sorry ...

Yikes! I forgot about the Richard Prince "appropriations." I don't think much of them either, but I've seen other work that I thought to be excellent. As for Cindy Sherman, you'd probably win the financial race with her. And I agree that the "film stills," which put her on the map, are pretty good. But much of the rest of her stuff is just plain ugly.

 

[removed account4]

Yikes! I forgot about the Richard Prince "appropriations." I don't think much of them either, but I've seen other work that I thought to be excellent. As for Cindy Sherman, you'd probably win the financial race with her. And I agree that the "film stills," which put her on the map, are pretty good. But much of the rest of her stuff is just plain ugly.

yep appropriations which put HIM on the map. nothing like making a name for your self by stealing other peoples work and "exhibiting" it as your own installation.
as for cindy sherman get gets an A+ in my book, nothing short of that ... and i dont' care about financial races...

 

[removed account4]

I agree, many women feel that the traditional nuclear family is best for them...while realizing that many do not. Equal pay for equal work, and equal opportunity in society are worthwhile goals, and part of that is the elimination of artificial barriers.

Raising children is not women's work. It is the work of both parents and the society they belong in.

+1 !

 

[Vaughn]

And because when I get into discussions like this, it drives me to do more research on the various topics. I learned that divorce rates in the US are dropping...18% since 2008. The Millenials are getting some of the 'blame'...marrying later and thus possibly smarter.

I was looking for info on the percentage of divorces that involve children (<18yrs old), etc. but two traveling photographers dropped by and the looking-at-prints (and an incredible handmade book) was followed by pancakes with blackberries. I sent one of the fellows out to the backyard to pick the berries. He returned saying I should have armed him with a large knife to fend off the big Fall spiders!

The people who inhabit the art world do tend to be ahead of most social curves. We'll see gender equality there before we see it in the board rooms and government halls. Which I suppose can make the gov't a little worried about artists -- the NEA is on the chopping block, I see.