Are We Really Stuck With Ilford MGFB? Where Are the Magic Papers of the Past?

[JMB]

I'm not sure why you've completely ignored what @bedrof (lives in Russia) said pages ago. Slavich no longer makes paper.

Two reasons:

1. Didn't see it.
2. At the moment, broadly speaking, proprietary.

 

[Chromium VI]

A beginner's question regarding the Ilford MGRC papers, if I may:

Did I understand right that warmtone paper (not only FB, but RC as well) does take on toners like thiocarbamide and selenium quite a bit better than the regular (non-warmtone)?
Or is it not really doing much with any RC paper (talking about changes in tone / depth / dmax - I suppose the archival benefit RC does receive?)

I'm kinda wondering, as the the warmtone MGRC doesn't seem to be popular - it's not available in as many sizes, and the vast majority of sizes / finishes are out of stock / on backorder, or a "special delivery item" in basically all the shops (here in Germany at least)..

Every paper will tone different, on the same emulsion, you may even get different results if the paper is glossy, mate or semi-gloss, etc... Warmtone means that, under normal development, the tone of the paper is already a bit on the warm side. There are also warmtone devs. that will give "normal" paper a warm hue, as well as cold tone paper and developer. Go, and experiment different combos, and see what you like.

 

[Don_ih]

1. Didn't see it.

I'd suggest paying attention to people who obviously know what they're talking about.

 

[GregY]

JMB. "By turning to Slavich instead I helped to ensure the availability of a fine graded paper at a marvelous price!"

Ilya "Unfortunately, they don't produce paper anymore"

We have what we have.....and more important to me is what can i continue to get?...

I rest my case....

 

[JMB]

I'd suggest paying attention to people who obviously know what they're talking about.

I suggest that you read 1 and 2 of my response once an unnoticed previous post was brought to my attention. You too, Greg Y.

And I must say I do not understand your hostility. This isn't about "cases" either for crying out loud. It's about creative and very proactive sourcing of materials (and commitment of funds to influence and address conditions) so that one can pursue one's own aesthetic choices without depending upon a particular corporate entity with its own agenda.

 

[mshchem]

A beginner's question regarding the Ilford MGRC papers, if I may:

Did I understand right that warmtone paper (not only FB, but RC as well) does take on toners like thiocarbamide and selenium quite a bit better than the regular (non-warmtone)?
Or is it not really doing much with any RC paper (talking about changes in tone / depth / dmax - I suppose the archival benefit RC does receive?)

I'm kinda wondering, as the the warmtone MGRC doesn't seem to be popular - it's not available in as many sizes, and the vast majority of sizes / finishes are out of stock / on backorder, or a "special delivery item" in basically all the shops (here in Germany at least)..

The latest version of Ilford multigrade RC will tone slightly in selenium toner, the warmtone Ilford RC will tone dramatically in selenium. Warmtone RC paper is less commonly used. If you do use selenium toner use stronger with the neutral tone papers, more dilute with warmtone.

 

[GregY]

I suggest that you read 1 and 2 of my response once an unnoticed previous post was brought to my attention. You too, Greg Y.

And I must say I do not understand your hostility. This isn't about "cases" either for crying out loud. It's about creative and very proactive sourcing of materials (and commitment of funds to influence and address conditions) so that one can pursue one's own aesthetic choices without depending upon a particular corporate entity with its own agenda.

Why are you pushing a paper that is not available.
I'll go with others who say ....I want to buy papers they can get
As for hostility...even photographers need an ethical line they won't cross.....clearly you don't have one

 

[mshchem]

Why are you pushing a paper that is not available.
I'll go with others who say ....I want to buy papers they can get
As for hostility...even photographers need an ethical line they won't cross.....clearly you don't have one

A "paper pusher"

 

[thinkbrown]

I forget if I've made this comment before in this thread, but I'm just glad photo paper still exists. I know probably half a dozen film shooters in person but I'm the only one who actually makes prints. Darkroom printing is a niche within a niche and I'm glad there's any materials for it still available

 

[mshchem]

I forget if I've made this comment before in this thread, but I'm just glad photo paper still exists. I know probably half a dozen film shooters in person but I'm the only one who actually makes prints. Darkroom printing is a niche within a niche and I'm glad there's any materials for it still available

AMEN!!

 

[JMB]

Why are you pushing a paper that is not available.
I'll go with others who say ....I want to buy papers they can get
As for hostility...even photographers need an ethical line they won't cross.....clearly you don't have one

Jeez, read, Greg, read. And if you wish to justify hostility on the grounds of an imaginary ethical line, what could I possibly say in response? In any case, we really have covered this. You can have the last word. I'm going to let this topic rest.

 

[Craig]

Darkroom printing is a niche within a niche and I'm glad there's any materials for it still available

I'd nuance that a bit by saying fresh, consistent supply and top quality materials are available. We are lucky to have Ilford still making such variety of products as they do.

 

[thinkbrown]

I'd nuance that a bit by saying fresh, consistent supply and top quality materials are available. We are lucky to have Ilford still making such variety of products as they do.

I mean, I'm genuinely glad there's any paper available but your point is equally valid. Both Ilford and Foma produce some gorgeous papers. I learned on Ilford multigrade but switched to Foma when I found out how good the velvet finish they offer is.

 

[Craig]

It's about creative and very proactive sourcing of materials

I asked before and I'll ask again, where can someone buy Slavich paper currently?
(and legally, i.e. not breaking trade embargos or risk having the paper seized by customs)

 

[John Wiegerink]

As for hostility...even photographers need an ethical line they won't cross.....clearly you don't have one

+1 I think it's more of a moral and ethical thing for me. It really doesn't matter since we can't buy Salvich per anymore anyway. I just dug through my stash of paper and I have two packets of Slavich paper left. I'll hang onto it and someday it will be worth its weight in silver.

 

[MattKing]

FWIW, the Ilford RC Warmtone and Cooltone papers both respond well to toning, and have done so since they came out as part of the older, MGIV RC version.
The more standard MGIV neutral tone papers - the ones that were Ilford's most used paper for many years, were exceptionally consistent from batch to batch, but part of the way they maintained that consistency resulted in them being relatively unresponsive to toning - particularly with respect to image tone in selenium. That paper does respond nicely to Sepia and Brown toner plus many of the related indirect toning ottions. The Cootone and Warmtone MGIV RC versions were much more responsive to toning, including selenium toning.
The current neutral tone, Warmtone and Cooltone Ilford RC Classic papers - sometimes referred to incorrectly as MGV RC - are apparently more susceptible to toning, including selenium toning. I'm still using up stocks of the older stuff, so I have no direct experience of that.
FWIW, I really like the MGIV RC Cooltone which, ironically, looks really good when toned with the Sepia toners. It also cools even further in selenium.

 

[Tina Kino]

Thank you for the insight @mshchem and @MattKing - it's appreciated!

 

[GregY]

Nicely said Matt. I think it's worth saying that even though current Ilford papers do tone.....they don't tone as rapidly as Foma for example. It take a bit of work to figure out what toner dilution and time will give you the results you're looking for.

 

[John Wiegerink]

FWIW, the Ilford RC Warmtone and Cooltone papers both respond well to toning, and have done so since they came out as part of the older, MGIV RC version.
The more standard MGIV neutral tone papers - the ones that were Ilford's most used paper for many years, were exceptionally consistent from batch to batch, but part of the way they maintained that consistency resulted in them being relatively unresponsive to toning - particularly with respect to image tone in selenium. That paper does respond nicely to Sepia and Brown toner plus many of the related indirect toning ottions. The Cootone and Warmtone MGIV RC versions were much more responsive to toning, including selenium toning.
The current neutral tone, Warmtone and Cooltone Ilford RC Classic papers - sometimes referred to incorrectly as MGV RC - are apparently more susceptible to toning, including selenium toning. I'm still using up stocks of the older stuff, so I have no direct experience of that.
FWIW, I really like the MGIV RC Cooltone which, ironically, looks really good when toned with the Sepia toners. It also cools even further in selenium.

Matt,
That's the problem I'm having with Foma Vaiant paper I'm using. Toning with selenium gives almost no color shift at all. I don't know how you could "over" tone in selenium. I have done no Sepia toning with this paper, but it sure doesn't respond very much to selenium that's for sure. Maybe I'm doing something dreadfully wrong???

 

[MattKing]

Matt,
That's the problem I'm having with Foma Vaiant paper I'm using. Toning with selenium gives almost no color shift at all. I don't know how you could "over" tone in selenium. I have done no Sepia toning with this paper, but it sure doesn't respond very much to selenium that's for sure. Maybe I'm doing something dreadfully wrong???

Probably not.
Aparently, if the design criteria for papers includes:
1) batch to batch consistency; and
2) consistent response over an extended range of time between manufacturing date and "use before" date,
then the image tone built into the paper is likely to be fairly resistant to toning/change.
With the old Ilford MGIV RC, if you leave it in selenium for a very long time, you will observe very little change for a long time, before eventually a rather sudden shift to an eggplant tone that isn't particularly attractive, IMHO.
With that Ilford paper, you can get a bit more of an interesting result if you do some split toning, with a partial bleach and redevelop sepia tone first, followed by selenium.

 

[Don_ih]

And I must say I do not understand your hostility.

It's not hostility. It's a statement. If you're fishing through the thread to find stuff to argue about, I guess it's reasonable to ignore someone who quotes you that you can't refute. Anyway, it's great you have a lot of Slavish paper. I have 18 sheets of 9x12cm Slavich paper - kinda useless. Is that relevant to anything? Is the paper you have that can never be replaced relevant to anything?

As for hostility, crying out that you will never use a square inch of Ilford paper due to price gouging is possibly a little more hostile. That Foma manages to be a bit cheaper than them is actually impressive. Paper without silver gelatin emulsion on it is expensive all on its own. Just ask people who use it.

 

[Chromium VI]

I think you can but Slavich paper here: https://www.geola.com/product/black-and-white-photo-paper/
They are from Lithuania (EU) soo no customs applied, and they are official Slavich re-sellers.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Out of date papers can have resistance to consistent toning for a couple of reasons. One is the general change in crisp development itself, which inevitably affects the response to certain toners. The other is, potential changes to the gelatin if given enough time.
I only worked with MGIV sparingly, only for temporary commercial offset repro purposes. But the FB version of MGIV toned rather anemically in general, so wouldn't be a very good candidate for comparisons. Split toning works best with MGWT, but Classic "neutral tone" works to some extent too; Cooltone, no.

I was quite disappointed with current Foma FB Neutral paper in terms of toning response. Yeah, you can make a little dent in it; but I wouldn't call versatile in that respect. On the other hand recent (if currenty scarce) Bergger NT was quite resilient, and the now extinct Harman Fineprint NT could do wonderful things. All of these papers were VC.

 

[mshchem]

Try fibre base Ilford and/or Foma.

 

[Craig]

I think you can but Slavich paper here: https://www.geola.com/product/black-and-white-photo-paper/
They are from Lithuania (EU) soo no customs applied, and they are official Slavich re-sellers.

That's more expensive than what I can buy Ilford for locally on a like for like basis ( size, number of sheets), before shipping is added.