Are We Really Stuck With Ilford MGFB? Where Are the Magic Papers of the Past?

[chuckroast]

The AI summary is unreliable. There's no reference I can find online to it ever being sold. I searched Google Books and found nothing.

Ansco 103 was their Universal Film and Paper Developer.

You may be right because I spent an hour or two looking for old catalog references.

But why would "Ansco 130" even be a thing if they never sold it, I wonder?

 

[Don_ih]

But why would "Ansco 130" even be a thing if they never sold it, I wonder?

Ansco used to include developer formulas on the sheets they included with film (I know - I found a couple). Don't know if they did the same thing for paper. They sold branded photo chemicals.

 

[Don_ih]

Also, think of all the formula books Kodak printed over the years. I doubt all of those formulas were available prepackaged. (They didn't publish the formulas for all their products, either.)

 

[Chromium VI]

If you give this a try, please do let us know how it went.

I just need to find potassium bromide somewhere... Here I can buy almost any chemical (even some that shouldn't be able too...) but why doesn't anyone stock KBr goes beyond my comprehension.

 

[GregY]

You may be right because I spent an hour or two looking for old catalog references.

But why would "Ansco 130" even be a thing if they never sold it, I wonder?

Yes indeed!

 

[Don_ih]

From the last page of an Ansco Formulas booklet:

 

[DREW WILEY]

Lots of people still prefer to cook with their own ingredients at home, rather than microwave a pre-frozen TV dinner. Convenience and mass distribution isn't always the point. Instead, for many, taste is.

 

[MattKing]

rather than microwave a pre-frozen TV dinner

If you have something that is still branded a "TV dinner" in your freezer Drew, I'd caution against eating them, no matter how you prepare them.
They would be likely to be past their "best before" date .........
In the winter months, in many parts of the world, frozen food can be the healthiest and most flavourful option!

 

[DREW WILEY]

I have never ever had TV dinners even in my refrigerator. What kind of scavenging vulture do you think I am? But there are plenty of other analogous putrid options in Supermarket freezer aisles, not to mention what fast food joints serve up. My wife does do a fair amount of her own freezing. But my big film freezer is off limits. Last time she got in there and hid a frozen turkey in the bottom, she completely forgot about it until I exhumed it about 15 years later (inedible).

Up in your far north, native inhabitants have been known to eat Mammoth and Mastodon meat frozen for who knows how many thousand or tens of thousands of years, sometime with catastrophic botulism consequences. Way back then the early hunters would take 200 lb chunks of elephant meat and impale it on deeply sunk sharpened tree poles in "pingos" - supercooled tundra pools - the earliest known version of "flash freezing". Modern experiments with African elephant meat cold-preserved in the same manner and then eaten a couple years later proved completely successful. Of course, if you want to set up a wooly mammoth fast food franchise, I recommend removing all the wooly hair before deep frying it!

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

I just need to find potassium bromide somewhere... Here I can buy almost any chemical (even some that shouldn't be able too...) but why doesn't anyone stock KBr goes beyond my comprehension.

That's unfortunate. Have you checked with Fototechnik Suvatlar or Bellini?

Where to buy raw chemicals in Europe?

I live in Brazil but once or twice a year I go to Paris and/or Amsterdam due to family reasons. I used to buy from Disactis (French) my raw chemicals, but it seems they are no longer in business. Does anybody know a supplier in Europe that could ship to these cities? I am in need, for instance...

www.largeformatphotography.info

 

[Chromium VI]

That's unfortunate. Have you checked with Fototechnik Suvatlar or Bellini?

Yes, I've also checked Disactis. My normal supplier is Silaba (north portugal, they sell everything, to anyone, from A. Dichromate, to fuming N. Acid and Catechol, and ship them by mail) they have lots of stuff but I now they sell stuff from SordaLab (France), I can buy directly from Sordalab, wich makes the price cheaper but I need to make it worth the postage. I also know SPD (north portugal as well) they sell many stuff (Pot Permanganate at 5€/kg with no questions asked). I know suppliers, but the problem is that they only sell 500g packages and above, I think I need to do that investment.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Yes, I've also checked Disactis. My normal supplier is Silaba (north portugal, they sell everything, to anyone, from A. Dichromate, to fuming N. Acid and Catechol, and ship them by mail) they have lots of stuff but I now they sell stuff from SordaLab (France), I can buy directly from Sordalab, wich makes the price cheaper but I need to make it worth the postage. I also know SPD (north portugal as well) they sell many stuff (Pot Permanganate at 5€/kg with no questions asked). I know suppliers, but the problem is that they only sell 500g packages and above, I think I need to do that investment.

If you end up having to buy 500g of Potassium Bromide you will likely have a lifetime supply. One nice thing about that much Potassium Bromide is that it has a very good shelf life and will last you a very long time.

 

[Craig]

There are plenty of people with very extensive experience that think Ansco 130 gives them something they can't get from anything else.

In the fall I asked the question of what glycin adds to paper developer and the answer wasn't very definitive. nobody could say exactly what the difference was, if any.

interestingly, the discussion brought up "The great paper developer shootout" and in blind tests the prints developed in Ansco 130 were not the ones most liked. If glycin does something extra, most people don't like it.

 

[GregY]

In the fall I asked the question of what glycin adds to paper developer and the answer wasn't very definitive. nobody could say exactly what the difference was, if any.

interestingly, the discussion brought up "The great paper developer shootout" and in blind tests the prints developed in Ansco 130 were not the ones most liked. If glycin does something extra, most people don't like it.

Craig is it possible that Ansco 130 has come to the front as we've lost a lot of past beautiful papers?
PFormulary 130 is along with LPD my favourite paper developers. I do use the 5 liter containers of Ilford Multi grade for daily/normal work...since i can buy it in Calgary. I'm always trying for consistency so i don't graze among all the developers and choose not to mix my own. But I do prefer 130 & LPD for exhibition/sale prints

 

[chuckroast]

Craig is it possible that Ansco 130 has come to the front as we've lost a lot of past beautiful papers?
PFormulary 130 is along with LPD my favourite paper developers. I do use the 5 liter containers of Ilford Multi grade for daily/normal work...since i can buy it in Calgary. I'm always trying for consistency so i don't graze among all the developers and choose not to mix my own. But I do prefer 130 & LPD for exhibition/sale prints

I only just started using 130 in the past few months. Well ... adding things to stock Dektol to make it 130.

My experience is that it definitely provides some improved separation in the shadow zones and hold the highlights a bit, at least with Fomabrom Varian 111 VCFB. But it is subtle and depends on the subject somewhat.

We are at the point in the improvement curve with this stuff where we are looking at very small incremental benefits. That is, we're in the asymptote of the Benefit-vs-Fiddling Around curve.

 

[Augustus Caesar]

Most of the effects claimed for glycin could be duplicated simply by changing dilutions, adding Potassium Bromide or Benzotriazole , or the amount of Sodium Carbonate. I use several DuPont and Gevaert formulas.

 

[DREW WILEY]

There can be a subtle highlight stain with glycin which would be awfully hard to replicate just by tweaks to conventional formulas. I therefore completely agree with Caesar, even if he is the Emperor.

 

[JMB]

Hey everyone,

I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately, and I’m hoping to hear other printers’ experiences.

It feels like Ilford Multigrade FB (Classic / Warmtone) has become the only serious silver-gelatin enlarging paper that anyone uses anymore. Walk into any fine-art darkroom, talk to printers I know, check galleries, or read process write-ups… it’s Ilford MGFB across the board.

I get why: consistency, availability, archival behavior, etc. But I can’t help feeling like the paper just doesn’t have that “magic” quality that older papers had. There’s nothing wrong with Ilford MGFB, but there’s also nothing that makes me stop and marvel at it either.

When I look at older prints on papers like Oriental Seagull (the real stuff), or other classic 70s–90s emulsions, the surface just had this sparkle, the kind of depth and micro-contrast that made the blacks feel like velvet and the highlights almost shimmer. The textures were gorgeous and subtle.

By comparison, Ilford’s current glossy FB surface feels… a little dead? Flat? Lacking that micro-sheen? I find myself wishing for something that actually excites me again.

So I’m wondering:

• What are people doing now that the beautiful papers of the past are gone?
Are you coating prints with lacquer or gloss sprays to bring back some of that pop?

• Is there any paper on the market that’s truly notable besides Ilford?
Foma/Fomabrom, Adox MCC, MG Art 300 — do any of these really scratch the itch, or are we all settling?

• Has anyone moved to liquid emulsions or hand-coating their own papers?
If the commercial options are so limited, is DIY the future for people who want unique surfaces again?

• And bigger picture… when are we going to see NEW silver-gelatin papers?
Are any manufacturers actually working on something new? Or are we just going to be using the same handful of emulsions indefinitely?

I’d love to hear how people are dealing with the current landscape.
Are you happy with the available papers? Have you found workarounds? Or are you feeling the same sense of loss for those older, magical surfaces?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

I abandoned Ilford a long time ago. At one point I printed mostly on Ilford Gallerie and Oriental Seagull. (After a few printing sessions I permanently rejected Ilford MGFB; it's durable enough, but boring). Then I discovered Slavich graded papers. And now I am bewildered why more people do not print on Slavich (Bromportrait or Unibrom) --especially since the disappearance of so many other interesting papers . Both papers have a lot of personality and are very robust. They are excellent graded papers that easily rival Ilford Gallerie in terms of reliability, and at least in my view, exceed Gallerie in printing quality (highlights in amidol are striking). I print on Fomabrom III when I want a grade 4 paper. Slavich is available in essentially grades 2 & 3. Not sure if Fomabrom III grade 4 is still available. I have been drawing from a large frozen supply. Slavich is a little tricky to get at the moment. I read an email that someone sent to Michael Smith a number of years ago when Smith was pushing Lodima. It essentially asked, "Jeez Michael, have you seen prints on Slavich Bromportait!?" (It's a chloro-bromo paper). Smith wrote back emphatically : "It's horrible!" I don't recall exactly his two or three word response, but this is close. In light of my own experience with Slavich I could only understand Smith's response as a clear endorsement. Weston liked chloro-bromo papers, too.

 

[GregY]

I abandoned Iford a long time ago. At one point I printed mostly on Iford Gallerie and Oriental Seagull. (After a few printing sessions I permanently rejected Iford Multi-MGFB; its durable enough, but boring. Then I discovered Slavich graded papers. And now I am bewildered why more people do not print on Slavich (Bromportrait or Unibrom). Both papers have a lot of personality and are very robust. They are excellent graded papers that easily rival Iford Gallerie in terms of reliability, and at least in my view, exceed Gallerie in printing quality (highlights in amadol are striking). I print on Fomabrom III when I want a grade 4 paper. Slavich is available in essentially grades 2 & 3. Not sure if Fomabrom III grade 4 is still available. I have been drawing from a large frozen supply. Slavich is a little tricky to get at the moment. I read an email that someone sent to Michael Smith a number of years ago when Smith was pushing Lodima. It essentially asked, "Jeez Michael, have you seen prints on Slavich Bromportait?" (It's a chloro-bromo paper). Smith wrote back emphatically : "It's horrible!" I don't recall exactly his two or three word response, but this is close. In light of my own experience with Slavich I could only understand Smith's response as an clear endorsement. Weston liked chloro-bromo papers, too.

JMB, It's not clear where you live, but the two biggest retailers in N America, B&H & Freestyle haven't had Slavich paper in quite some time.....

 

[JMB]

JMB, It's not clear where you live, but the two biggest retailers in N America, B&H & Freestyle haven't had Slavich paper in quite some time.....

I live in California. And yes, you are correct Freestyle was the first to stop selling it, (but it was still easily available from B&H for a very long time thereafter), and it was still also freely available from Galaxy by direct order and from European and Russian retailers, too. Now B&H has stopped --not sure when, but I suspect more recently. I am actually not sure of its availability from European sources at the moment, but I think that it will eventually be available in the USA again when the politics are more favorable. I purchased two very large shipments of various sizes up to 20 x 24 inches about 5 years ago, and keep it frozen. If you are at all interested in the paper, please stay in touch. I plan to stay on top of this because as you can see from my post that at least in my view it is the best paper currently produced. At least it is currently produced.

 

[Daniel Stuefer]

Another option to a bigger paper selection - make your own!

 

[bedrof]

At least it is currently produced.

Unfortunately, they don't produce paper anymore.

 

[bernard_L]

I can buy directly from Sordalab, wich makes the price cheaper but I need to make it worth the postage.

Did you actually buy from Sordalab? Because I see some hard-to-find chemicals on their site, but their Sales Terms state:

Cas particulier : produits chimiques
Nous n’acceptons pas les commandes des particuliers concernant les produits chimiques.

(we do not accept orders from private persons)
Maybe it's a posture and they will actually deliver?

There are hard-to-find chemicals at https://keten.com.pl/ (including... potassium dichromate) but I've so far not ordered from them.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Unfortunately, they don't produce paper anymore.

Oh, oh! If that's true then somebody isn't going to be happy to hear that.

 

[GregY]

I live in California. And yes, you are correct Freestyle was the first to stop selling it, (but it was still easily available from B&H for a very long time thereafter), and it was still also freely available from Galaxy by direct order and from European and Russian retailers, too. Now B&H has stopped --not sure when, but I suspect more recently. I am actually not sure of its availability from European sources at the moment, but I think that it will eventually be available in the USA again when the politics are more favorable. I purchased two very large shipments of various sizes up to 20 x 24 inches about 5 years ago, and keep it frozen. If you are at all interested in the paper, please stay in touch. I plan to stay on top of this because as you can see from my post that at least in my view it is the best paper currently produced. At least it is currently produced.

As a Canadian of Ukrainian heritage... I have no interest in buying Russian products......I did use some a number of years ago.
As a photographer, I want consistency...so i'll keep buying Ilford & Foma