Anyone ever make Lippmann plates?

Ray Rogers · Jun 17, 2010

Hologram said:
Here's the new home of the "Lippmann" papers: http://a2.no-ip.org/data/lippmann/

Thanks Hologram.

I too see some "new" things n there.

I think a few may still be missing, but being in French makes it harder to spot.

I did spot a few technical problems; not to criticise, but just FYI...

Becquerel, Sur la communication de M. Lippmann, 1891.pdf
and
Becquerel.pdf
are the same, but the larger one file has some notes on chemistry by Lippmann (I think) at the end. Probably not relevant (?)

Berget Photographie 1901.pdf
is actually a smallish file, but it is repeated 3 times... humm sticky fngers?

Ives Present condition.pdf
&
Ives Present condition of color photography.pdf
are the same...

Labatut, L'absorption et la photographie des couleurs,1891.pdf
&
Labatut 1891.pdf
are also the same.

Keep in mind, I dont really read French & I was hurring so it is possible I could be wrong

I actually went through the whole list and found various things to comment on but I guess that will have to wait,

I just menton these things here as I will clean-up some of the files... orientation etc, eventually and If i do, others may as well... since we have no need to duplcate all this work... if anyone else does print and re-scans or anything we should talk.

I had hoped I could get OCR from improved scans... even if by drawing in the letters by hand but so far no such luck. Best effect is size and orientation improvements.

Anyway, thanks for bringing these together!

Ray

Lionel1972 · Jun 18, 2010

Thanks for this new link. I've saved all of the files on my hard drive. I've just finished reading the "Je sais tout" interview of Lippmann. Very interesting although a bit off topic since Lippmann explains in this layman type of mag titled "Je sais tout" ("I know everything") how he has found a way to capture some kind of "holograms" based on the structure of some insects' eyes. There are pictures and descriptions of Lippmann and his laboratory at La Sorbonne. Funny detail, this new invention doesn't require a camera, just a plate holder that you open and close in order to expose it to the scene you want to capture.

holmburgers · Jun 18, 2010

Lionel, he must be referring to "integral photography". This is a fascinating topic in itself!

Indeed, I'd like to attempt it myself, but the lens sheets are fairly expensive, though not completely prohibitive. It requries no camera, because each "fly's eye" is a little lens that makes a tiny image. All of these tiny images, after being developed and placed back exactly where they were under the lens sheet, will be magnfied by the fly's eye's dependant on the angle at which you're looking at it. Thus each eye will see something different... the foundation for stereoscopy! That might not be the easiest to understand explanation, but I got excited.

Lionel1972 · Jun 21, 2010

Yes, he must have been refering to "integral photography". I understand how it can record thousands of images on the plate from slightly different points of view but I don't see so far how one is supposed to be able to reconstruct the whole 3D image from it if one doesn't have a fly's brain. That's another mystery to investigate now. Cool!

By the way I'm sent Ray my take on the translation of the first Lippmann paper from 1891.

holmburgers · Jun 21, 2010

Well, it's reconstructed just as easily as it's taken. The taking lenses become the viewing lenses.... it works off a phenomenon called the "sampling effect". It's pretty easy to understand, but very hard to explain. Have a look at wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_photography

The only catch is that the 1st generation image will be pseudoscopic, that is, a face would look like the inside of a mask. You have to make 2 generations to get an ortho-stereoscopic image. Hence, its limited success as an imaging technique. However, I think a pseudoscopic image would still be worth the effort.

Looking forward to any translations, I'd be more than happy to spruce them up if necessary.

Lionel1972 · Jun 21, 2010

Thanks for the link to the Integral Photography sources. Very interesting too (in one of the papers, there is a reproduction of a self-portrait in color by Lippmann himself).

I don't know how to post a file here yet so I sent my translation to Ray.

Lionel.

Ray Rogers · Jun 21, 2010

Lionel1972 said:
I sent my translation to Ray.

Lionel.

That translation has been spruced up and is on it's way back to Lionel

holmburgers · Jun 24, 2010

So I was at the Nelson-Atkins Museum yesterday in Kansas City and they had a modern daguerrotype of a park scene and the sky was distinctly blue! My girlfriend thought that the cherry blossoms looked slightly pink as well. I've heard of daguerrotypes exhibiting "spontaneous" color, even in the far distant past, but no one seemed to be able to get repeatable results. There's a write up somewhere in the tubes (the internet that is) about this and one man's modern efforts.

Anyways, just an interesting aside to the world of interference color photography.

I'd love to get my hands on those translations by the way, if either Lionel or Ray are willing.

UDPATE..... ok, I contacted the museum and here is the guy.... http://www.jerryspagnoli.com/ I haven't read much yet, and I'm not sure if it's "true color" interference or more of a solarization effect. Either way, it's worth looking at.

Ray Rogers · Jun 24, 2010

holmburgers said:
just an interesting aside to the world of interference color photography.

I'd love to get my hands on those translations by the way, if either Lionel or Ray are willing.

Yes. I think both processes can suffer from solarization and those seem to appear as a paint-by-numbers sky blue.
(ever make a paint-by-numbers painting?)

As far as the translations go,
They do take time to do reasonably well (it is amazing how much things change the closer you look at them!) and of course, there are protocols that need to be followed.

The first one should be available shortly, (unfortunately a small cosmetic problem needs to be dealt with first so) it will be another day or so....

Don't get too excited though, it's just a short paper.

Ray Rogers · Jun 29, 2010

Ray Rogers said:
As far as the translations go,
They do take time to do reasonably well
(it is amazing how much things change the closer you look at them!)
and of course, there are protocols that need to be followed.

The first one should be available shortly...

OK...

Here is that work:

Lionel1972 · Jun 29, 2010

Ray Rogers said:
OK...

Here is that work:

Thanks for your help and patience Ray. I should get to the next paper sometime during this week.

Ray Rogers · Jun 29, 2010

Lionel1972 said:
Thanks for your help and patience Ray.
I should get to the next paper sometime during this week.

I am the one that should be thanking you!
Nevertheless, You're welcome!

Thanks for sticking with it....

R Shaffer · Jun 29, 2010

Thanks to both of you for your efforts. Enjoyed reading the article.

holmburgers · Jun 30, 2010

On the topic of translations, I found this paper by Cajal, a Spanish researcher in the field of Lippmann's. The cool thing is that this text is copy & paste-able, so it could be quite easily translated automatically, and it's in Spanish which would probably be one of the easier languages to translate(?).

http://www.ucm.es/BUCM/med/doc12615.pdf

Thanks to Ray and Lionel for their translation. We're boldly going where no other man has gone before, at least, if you only speak English!

Also, does anyone edit wikipedia? I think that we could probably do a lot to the current page on Lippmann Plates, adding links that we've found and just generally making it a more comprehensive paper. Just a thought. My brother does a lot of wikipedia stuff, so I might have him show me the ropes, I believe it's pretty easy.

Now if only some more of us could follow R Shaffer's example and actually put rubber to the road!

Ray Rogers · Jun 30, 2010

holmburgers said:
On the topic of translations, I found this paper by Cajal, a Spanish researcher in the field of Lippmann's.

I recognize his name.
I wonder if that paper has already been translated?
I think we do have a 9 page abstract of this in English in the group of papers compiled by HOLOGRAM, if I recall correctly... plus a German translation of the full artcle as well!

BUT in any case, NICE FIND!

Ray

PS... there are tire tracks and skid marks all over the place here...

Marco B · Jul 1, 2010

Maybe it was already referenced, but I found this PDF with summaries of the historic British Journal of Photography:

http://www.arp-geh.org/FileUpload_demo/BJPAsummary1.pdf

It mentiones Lippmann plates and photography several times too. Please note that these are just summaries, you will have to look up the actual journals to see the full articles. But maybe useful as a reference...

Marco

Ray Rogers · Jul 1, 2010

Marco B said:
Please note that these are just summaries, you will have to look up the actual journals to see the full articles. But maybe useful as a reference...

Marco

Thanks Marco!

Now all we need is someone to type up the full articles....

Ray

Marco B · Jul 1, 2010

Ray Rogers said:
Thanks Marco!

Now all we need is someone to type up the full articles....

Ray

I don't think Rachel will be willing to waste another whole summer on that exercise

What I don't understand is that, if scanning or photocopying is an issue, they don't simply photograph the stuff (well, might be an idea for someone visiting the library and wanting to share some article).

Ray Rogers · Jul 1, 2010

Marco B;102 2309 said:
I don't think Rachel will be willing to waste another whole summer on that exercise

What I don't understand is that, if scanning or photocopying is an issue, they don't simply photograph the stuff (well, might be an idea for someone visiting the library and wanting to share some article).

Well, In some cases that might be a possible option.

The main problem of doing any major work like Rachel did is funding/support.
At 80-110 dollars per day just to sleep indoors in safety one needs lots of money....

I don't know how much a "summer" is (1 month or 2) but...

166 pages...
1 month...166 pages / 31 days... = 5.4 pgs per day

A Hotel (w/no food!) $100 / day for 5.4 pages....

So for someone not living in the area, more than $3000 for this pdf....
(not including the lost summer!)

holmburgers · Jul 15, 2010

This article is completely unrelated to Lippmann photography, but it's about anamorphic lenses, and he talks about prisms and where to get cheap ones. Scroll down a ways to find it.

http://www.zuggsoft.com/theater/prism.htm

But it's pretty brilliant... TROPHY SHOPS. There are all sorts of lame prism/wedge awards and you can just easily buy a blank one. These should/could work great for Lippmann viewing.

Ray Rogers · Jul 15, 2010

holmburgers said:
There are all sorts of lame prism/wedge awards and you can just easily buy a blank one. These should/could work great for Lippmann viewing.

Holmburgers- You deserve one of these!

holmburgers · Jul 15, 2010

Haha, I don't deserve a thing.

The award goes to R Shaffer who's the only one yet to DO IT! All we can do is talk about it!

Ray Rogers · Jul 16, 2010

holmburgers said:
All we can do is talk about it!

Some people think Silence is Golden!
In the words of the immortal optimist, Ambroce Bierce:

Talk (v.t. )
To commit an indiscretion without temptation, from an impulse without purpose.

Lionel1972 · Sep 21, 2010

Hello guys.
I have not forgotten about the translation marathon project. I've been busy lately but intend to resume my efforts on the second translation as soon as this weekend, hopefully.
Any new progress on the "actually doing it" ground?

holmburgers · Sep 21, 2010

Wow, I tell you what! Somtimes some weird coincidences occurr.... I was just about to post something but Lionel beat me to it!

Despite a long lull, this project is still fresh in my mind. My darkroom should be up and running by the end of the week and at that point I definitely intend to do the real deal, hopefully sooner than later.

Like I said, I was going to post something, and it was of a more theoretical nature, but it inolves the issue of transmission vs. reflection again. I'm very intrigued by the prospect of getting a Lippmann transparency.

Since a negative/complementary image is seen upon transmission, it stands to reason that if one were to take a Lippmann photograph of a C-41 negative (perhaps by contact printing it), you could achieve a dichroic positive image that would potentially be easier to view than its reflective counterpart.

I know I've mentioned this before, but I can't remember if I came to this exact conclusion.

More importantly though, YES, this project is still alive. Just simmering on the back burner.... soon to be served!

Anyone ever make Lippmann plates?

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