Any technical explanations as to how or why film sharpness looks different from digital sharpness ??

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MattKing

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The value of this thread is it helps people explore how the different technologies achieve what they achieve.
It rarely hurts to have a better understanding how and why.
 

Sirius Glass

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You could turn that around and say that “because of necessary edge detection, and contrast enhancement digital shows selective sharpness and smudge elsewhere.
And because of aliasing from various sources in the matrix and digitization, digital shows harshness and artificial sharpness where there isn’t any”.

Film shows resolution in a different kind of way. A way I personally find much more pleasing and in a way that leans into and parallels what psycho acoustics tells us that our ear like.
A frequency response with a slightly down slanted curve toward the highs.
Generally there are more overlaps than not with the very general way in which we respond between the two senses of sight and hearing.

I agree. I too see those artifacts added on over sharpening done by software. Unfortunately there are some who now think that the artifacts are supposed to be there, sadly.
 

chuckroast

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I agree. I too see those artifacts added on over sharpening done by software. Unfortunately there are some who now think that the artifacts are supposed to be there, sadly.

Yes, but that's not a new debate either. I have long used Hasselblad and their razor-like optics. A lot of people don't care for that when, say, trying to shoot a more atmospheric scene or portrait, and declare that the Hassy is just "too sharp".

On this particular matter, I am conflicted, because they do have a point. I don't want to see every pore on a portrait. Of course, working pros used all manner of diffusion and softening techniques from soft filtering on the camera to diffusion screen under the enlarger.

When CDs first came out, the results were abysmal more often than not. Recording engineers hadn't yet figured out how to mic and mix for a medium that reproduced nearly everything flawlessly. (The analog amplifier manufacturers also had to catch up.) They implicitly had been protected by the limitations of vinyl and tape to hide their mistakes. It took a fair bit of time for the industry to start getting it right. (Where it mattered, with acoustic and classical music. Most of what has been popular since hasn't much needed recording subtlety...)

The point is that messing with sharpness isn't new. What's new is digital itself, which brings its own sensibility to image production. I would suggest that it hasn't been mature long enough for a good body of practice around post production to exist yet. Most of what I see is over produced, heavy handed, bordering on garish. This is just a growing up thing that will remedy itself with time. I do think that many advertising art directors are the villains in this, insofar as digital plays right into their natural instincts to tinker images to death.
 

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You could turn that around and say that “because of necessary edge detection, and contrast enhancement digital shows selective sharpness and smudge elsewhere.
And because of aliasing from various sources in the matrix and digitization, digital shows harshness and artificial sharpness where there isn’t any”.

For film there's a profound difference in resolution depending on test subject contrast. You need just two adjacent rows of pixels to record an edge between any two luminosities, whereas you need many silver grains to record an edge between two luminosities differing by just a few %. That's a given property of the recording medium, and whether you embrace it or not: it's there.
 

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This thread reminds me of audiophools arguing over whether vinyl LPs sound better than CDs.
 

MurrayMinchin

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If you...google > film vs digital sharpness > tools > any time > past year...this discussion is top of page one 😎
 

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This thread reminds me of audiophools arguing over whether vinyl LPs sound better than CDs.

Years ago when I was still peripherally involved in the recording business, a very wealthy guy retained one of the companies I had done business with to build him "the best audio system money can buy" for his house. They finished the installation, EQed the room, and proudly handed it over to him.

A few days later he called them pretty steamed that the system he'd spent 10s of thousands on "sounded lousy." Long story short, they got him to take a hearing test and he had terrible high frequency hearing. They re-EQed the system to crank the highs accordingly and he loved his new system. Everyone else heard tinny screeching.

People arguing about what they hear, see, or taste is pointless - we all vary far too much.

(Also, I don't think anyone here's really been "arguing", only exchanging notes.)
 

Sirius Glass

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Yes, but that's not a new debate either. I have long used Hasselblad and their razor-like optics. A lot of people don't care for that when, say, trying to shoot a more atmospheric scene or portrait, and declare that the Hassy is just "too sharp".

On this particular matter, I am conflicted, because they do have a point. I don't want to see every pore on a portrait. Of course, working pros used all manner of diffusion and softening techniques from soft filtering on the camera to diffusion screen under the enlarger.

When CDs first came out, the results were abysmal more often than not. Recording engineers hadn't yet figured out how to mic and mix for a medium that reproduced nearly everything flawlessly. (The analog amplifier manufacturers also had to catch up.) They implicitly had been protected by the limitations of vinyl and tape to hide their mistakes. It took a fair bit of time for the industry to start getting it right. (Where it mattered, with acoustic and classical music. Most of what has been popular since hasn't much needed recording subtlety...)

The point is that messing with sharpness isn't new. What's new is digital itself, which brings its own sensibility to image production. I would suggest that it hasn't been mature long enough for a good body of practice around post production to exist yet. Most of what I see is over produced, heavy handed, bordering on garish. This is just a growing up thing that will remedy itself with time. I do think that many advertising art directors are the villains in this, insofar as digital plays right into their natural instincts to tinker images to death.

I have B60 Softar filters [1,2,3] that I have never used. I end up shooting at a faster shutter speed and opening up the lens.
 

Sergey Ko

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90% digital photos nowadays done with smartphone with its hidden enhancing logic. Just try to take a photo of the morning mist to understand. Using some extra enhancers make photos even more sharp.
It becomes a standard for the image, and even scanning we play according standards.
I often use in retouching "blur" not "sharp" tools, not to follow this trend. But I am already not a PRO for 25 years & I not looking for thousands of followers on Flickr & Insta...

Scan:
 

faberryman

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Unfortunately, film photographers oversharpen their scans, so virtue is a scarce commodity.
 

Sirius Glass

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Unfortunately, film photographers oversharpen their scans, so virtue is a scarce commodity.

Overshapening is done with both film and digital as I posted in post # 77.
 

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That is an inherent issue with just having too many cool apps and methods of control at your fingertips - the temptation to go hog wild with them. It's an adolescent technology ethos overtly apparent by all the uncomely zits in the prints themselves. No restraint. It's even worse with respect to the let-it-all-hang-out mentality of hyper color saturation one sees everywhere nowadays.

Eventually new and cool options inevitably become routine and boring, and self-extinguish as far as fad status goes. Then something else emerges to replace it, and has a similar cycle.
 

chuckroast

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That is an inherent issue with just having too many cool apps and methods of control at your fingertips - the temptation to go hog wild with them. It's an adolescent technology ethos overtly apparent by all the uncomely zits in the prints themselves. No restraint. It's even worse with respect to the let-it-all-hang-out mentality of hyper color saturation one sees everywhere nowadays.

Eventually new and cool options inevitably become routine and boring, and self-extinguish as far as fad status goes. Then something else emerges to replace it, and has a similar cycle.

I believe the next cycle has begun with products like Topaz AI. They are using machine learning farms to augment the editing process to give the post production process the ability to make the print what is should have been - in focus, color corrected, and so forth. This combined with the mindless snapshottery of iPhones and other personal devices (Topaz isn't very expensive) will make digital photography increasingly the domain of AIs. Whether this is yet another branch off the tree of light or the destruction of human driven digital photography remains to be seen.

I'll still shoot film, thanks...
 

Steven Lee

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The value of this thread is it helps people explore how the different technologies achieve what they achieve.
It rarely hurts to have a better understanding how and why.

That would have been true if every comment was informed. But instead you have a usual mixture of technically correct facts, mythology, chest puffing, fears, uncertainty and doubt :smile:
 

faberryman

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That is an inherent issue with just having too many cool apps and methods of control at your fingertips - the temptation to go hog wild with them. It's an adolescent technology ethos overtly apparent by all the uncomely zits in the prints themselves. No restraint. It's even worse with respect to the let-it-all-hang-out mentality of hyper color saturation one sees everywhere nowadays.

Eventually new and cool options inevitably become routine and boring, and self-extinguish as far as fad status goes. Then something else emerges to replace it, and has a similar cycle.

Not everyone goes hog wild. Believe it or not, some people, including serious photographers, can restrain themselves. We don't need to limit the number of crayons in the box to eight just because some people don’t like neon colors.
 
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DREW WILEY

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chuck - that's not a road I'll ever go down - completely the wrong direction in my opinion as a printmaker. No self-driving cars for me, or automated printing anything. But that's not the kind of thing I was referring to at all anyway, but a revolution in pigment technology itself.
 

SodaAnt

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That is an inherent issue with just having too many cool apps and methods of control at your fingertips - the temptation to go hog wild with them. It's an adolescent technology ethos overtly apparent by all the uncomely zits in the prints themselves. No restraint. It's even worse with respect to the let-it-all-hang-out mentality of hyper color saturation one sees everywhere nowadays.

How is that any different than the crazy, garish stuff you can do in a darkroom?
 

DREW WILEY

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Actually, it's IMPOSSIBLE to do any of that crazy garish stuff in my darkroom, specifically because it is MY own darkroom. Nor do any of my cameras have the ability to do that sort of thing themselves. I'm perfectly aware of how to do post-scan PS pseudo-sharpening and so forth. Or more politely, mimic-sharpening. Where do you think those PS app terms came from in the first place?
It was for sake of helping people in the graphic and printing trades transition over from big copy film practice to equivalent scanning protocols instead. At least they were supposed to know what they wanted, or what the client wanted. But now everyone throws away their expensive two year old old DLSR and replaces it with a thousand dollar Smartphone which has an onboard green and purple psychedelic cobwebs-inside-the-lens simulation app, mistaking idiocy for creativity.

Even in the darkroom, it takes some experience to recognize how not to either overdo or underdo masking. Yes, masking can be used for edge sharpening. But whenever possible, I prefer to let the film choice, and how that is specifically developed, control that particular variable. But digital capture differs in that respect, and once a heavy hand is placed on the throttle, many people just don't know when to let up.

Films have "native sharpness" - or what we laymen call edge acutance. Jason (Nodda) probably has a more correct way of explaining that, since he is the only real optical engineer chiming in. But lacking that same ability, digital capture relies on artificial edge enhancement instead, which is inherently lossy to some degree.
 

SodaAnt

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Actually, it's IMPOSSIBLE to do any of that crazy garish stuff in my darkroom, specifically because it is MY own darkroom.

My use of the word "you" wasn't meant to imply you yourself do that kind of thing.

Similarly, it's also possible to use restraint, despite the temptations, when using software tools. Blame the tool users for that excess, not the tool.
 

DREW WILEY

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I agree. Tools are exactly that - just tools. It all depends on who wields them, and why.
 

Helge

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I agree. Tools are exactly that - just tools. It all depends on who wields them, and why.

I wonder where this cliché originated?
Tools are not just tools.
They are one of most important parts of humanity, one of the defining traits. We shape them and they shape us in turn.
They are a subset of media or is media a subset of them.
Tools are what is responsible for the characteristic look of all art.
 

chuckroast

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I wonder where this cliché originated?
Tools are not just tools.
They are one of most important parts of humanity, one of the defining traits. We shape them and they shape us in turn.
They are a subset of media or is media a subset of them.
Tools are what is responsible for the characteristic look of all art.

I really agree with this. When I was a callow youth, I thought the tools mattered entirely and the right tools would make me good. I was wrong.

Then I thought the tools didn't matter all that much - I was making Aaaaaaaaaart (tm), and my "vision" was all that mattered. And I was wrong.

As I came into more artistic maturity, I came to understand that tools are important because they can free you, but they also influence how you work.

I shoot very differently with a 35mm Nikon, a digital Nikon, a Hasselblad, or a view camera. These tools enable various options to allow me to attempt to express my vision, but they also deny other options. It's a symbiotic relationship. Understanding that helps you pick the right tool when you need it.

So tools are NOT just tools, they are an integral part of the creative process. That said, it's also true that new buttons begged to get pressed, it's just human nature. We are currently in the digital button pressing stage. This too shall pass. (cf my prior post on how synthesizers didn't put Steinway out of business.)
 
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