Ansel Adams Film and Method

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Alan, it's all in the final visual effect. 8x10 photography depends on juggling several things : attaining sufficient depth of field (which is half of that of a comparable 4X5 perspective - in other words, if you get you're desired depth of field at f/22 in 4x5, you'd need twice that, f/45, to get the same depth on 8x10, because you'd need twice as long a focal length lens.

You also have to factor film flatness. For critical work, I use adhesive or vacuum holders for 8x10. With 4x5, standardizing on f/32 instead of f/22 has the benefit of better handling film flatness issues.

I don't like to tempt diffraction; but for my levels of enlargement, that limits me to f/64 or preferably f/45 with 8x10, or f/32 in 4x5 work. But a contact printer can get away with much smaller stops because he's after only a 1X scale of reproduction.

But yeah, vignetting is a factor too. For instance, I have certain 240 and 250 lenses which easily cover 4x5 format at wide f/stops, but might need to be stopped down to f/45 or f/64 just to competently cover 8x10 with significant movements involved, like front tilt or rise.

Basically I shoot f/22 because someone told me that's a good place to start when I took up 4x5 LF photography during Covid for the first time. I'll switch to f/32 if I think the DOF requires that based on DOF charts I use. I don't worry much if I'm using 90mm or 75mm with 4x5 because of the greater DOF anyway with those lenses. Mainly its when I shoot 150mm or 300mm with 4x5 that I wonder. Considering your guidelines, I probably shouldn't worry too much as I don't print that large anyway. The "fun" for me with LF photography is the technique and handling which can get frustrating at times as well. I really should send out a favorite for printing real large like 32" x 40".
 

Donald Qualls

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I guess AA really had to stop the lens down to get everything into focus, maybe f/64. I tried 8x10 on subjects this close at f/8 and only some of the scene goes into fine focus, the rest is a blur. Although the site says the exposure for this shot was 1/2 sec, so maybe not f/64.

Not Ansel, but Matt Marrash (Large Format Friday on YouTube) routinely uses f/32 and f/45 at 300 mm on his 8x10. Back in Ansel's younger days, he was a member of a photography group who called themselves "Group f/64" because they used that aperture for depth of field (this was before the effect of diffraction was well quantified, however).

And Steve O'Nions (another YouTuber) has done testing of 50 mm lenses on 35 mm film to f/32 and found DOF overrides diffraction in that use case.
 

kfed1984

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Well DOF is progressive from sharp to the closest and farthest parts of the scene. Some DOF may be desired. I just wonder what effect stopping down to f64 has on the sharpest parts of the scene, in focus. How much damage does f64 diffraction do to an 8x10 contact print or on enlargements about 2x.
 

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None. ... But if you think like a large format photographer, you also understand how plane of focus movements can also be utilized to manage depth of field issues. It's not simply about reducing the aperture.

Most of what we now might perceive as slightly unsharp about those old f-64 school prints they thought were uber-sharp probably had way more to do with the lesser acuity of their lenses themselves, or other related equipment and technique issues, rather than the fact they sometimes used f/64 apertures or even smaller ones.
 
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Basically I shoot f/22 because someone told me that's a good place to start when I took up 4x5 LF photography during Covid for the first time. I'll switch to f/32 if I think the DOF requires that based on DOF charts I use. I don't worry much if I'm using 90mm or 75mm with 4x5 because of the greater DOF anyway with those lenses. Mainly its when I shoot 150mm or 300mm with 4x5 that I wonder. Considering your guidelines, I probably shouldn't worry too much as I don't print that large anyway. The "fun" for me with LF photography is the technique and handling which can get frustrating at times as well. I really should send out a favorite for printing real large like 32" x 40".

The suggestion to use f/22 or f/16 on most LF lenses is because that is the sweet spot where stopping down has ameliorated lens aberrations and the effect of diffraction is still small. However, that only applies to the plane of sharp focus itself (which is what the lens manufacturers are basing their tests and specifications on). Once depth of field comes into play, then the extremes of the scene that one desires to have in sharp focus become the operating parameters and the effects of diffraction need to be balanced with acceptable sharpness at those extremes.

The optimum aperture for any given scene, then, depends on the focusing distance between the near and far objects in the scene that one wants to have acceptably sharp in a particular size print at a particular viewing distance. The idea is to have the out-of-focus points at the extremes small enough in the final print so that the eye resolves them as points.

The best way to find the optimum aperture for any given scene is to identify the extremes, i.e., the objects farthest from the plane of sharp focus on either side, and find the best compromise between depth of field and diffraction.

One can do this visually: Say one makes 16x20 prints from 4x5 negatives. That's a 4x enlargement without cropping. So, one could simply get a 4x loupe and spend time examining the extremes under the loupe at different taking apertures until one found the best one. Or, one can use a method where one measures focus spread between the two extremes and then selects the optimum f-stop based on a table that takes all the parameters (depth of field, diffraction, degree of enlargement, viewing distance) into account. Or one can use depth-of-field tables for the focal-length lens used after measuring the distance from the camera of the near and far extremes.

Any of these work; simply using f/22 for everything won't. In my experience with real life subjects and the kind of depth of field I want, I end up using f/32 more than any other stop on 4x5. My 16x20 prints made from negatives at that aperture show no noticeable sign of diffraction. (Note: for 8x10 and a 16x20 print, this would be good old f/64, just like the group - that's for a 2x enlargement of an 8x10 negative too. For contact prints from 8x10 negatives, one could easily use f/90 or smaller. I'm sure Edward Weston did. kfed1984, take notice).

And, as Drew astutely points out above, judicious use of camera movements can help optimize the aperture as well by reducing the necessary depth of field.

I'll use f/45 if needed, making a note that a smaller print will be optimum. Still, I have never run across a case where stopping down for depth of field wasn't better for the final image than using a larger aperture for less diffraction degradation and the resulting reduced depth of field.

My point being: there are better ways of finding the optimum aperture for a scene than just using f/22 or whatever. And, that depth of field trumps diffraction almost every time. Furthermore, diffraction degradation really only becomes apparent at very, very small apertures and/or high degrees of enlargements. If you're making 11x14 and 16x20 prints from 4x5 negatives, you shouldn't be worrying about f/32.

Best,

Doremus
 
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Donald Qualls

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If you're making 11x14 and 16x20 prints from 4x5 negatives, you shouldn't be worrying about f/32.

And this is the simple takeaway from all this. Or similarly up to f/64 on 8x10 at even 32x40, never mind the contact prints almost everyone makes from 8x10 (how many of us have an 8x10 enlarger and 300 mm enlarging lens?).
 
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kfed1984

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Any of these work; simply using f/22 for everything won't. In my experience with real life subjects and the kind of depth of field I want, I end up using f/32 more than any other stop on 4x5. My 16x20 prints made from negatives at that aperture show no noticeable sign of diffraction. (Note: for 8x10 and a 16x20 print, this would be good old f/64, just like the group - that's for a 2x enlargement of an 8x10 negative too. For contact prints from 8x10 negatives, one could easily use f/90 or smaller. I'm sure Edward Weston did. kfed1984, take notice).
Thank you. This probably explains why Edward Weston used exposures lasting for hours for his still life and pepper prints. Probably the depth of field control at macro level required even higher f-numbers, and hence long exposures.
 

kfed1984

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And this is the simple takeaway from all this. Or similarly up to f/64 on 8x10 at even 32x40, never mind the contact prints almost everyone makes from 8x10 (how many of us have an 8x10 enlarger and 300 mm enlarging lens?).
I was thinking of using the 8x10 camera as the enlarger, maybe with a macro lens. Basically you're got everything you need. The tilt/shift, and bellows allow for all zoom adjustments.
A custom film holder could be made, illuminated by an LED light pad maybe. The easel can be set up horizontally on the wall. It's a bit wonky but could work out. But some are saying there may be too much field curvature as the lens is not a proper enlarger lens. But again, maybe a macro lens exists for an 8x10 or 4x5? For 4x5 negatives I have an Omega D2 and plenty of lenses with long focal length.
 
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The suggestion to use f/22 or f/16 on most LF lenses is because that is the sweet spot where stopping down has ameliorated lens aberrations and the effect of diffraction is still small. However, that only applies to the plane of sharp focus itself (which is what the lens manufacturers are basing their tests and specifications on). Once depth of field comes into play, then the extremes of the scene that one desires to have in sharp focus become the operating parameters and the effects of diffraction need to be balanced with acceptable sharpness at those extremes.

The optimum aperture for any given scene, then, depends on the focusing distance between the near and far objects in the scene that one wants to have acceptably sharp in a particular size print at a particular viewing distance. The idea is to have the out-of-focus points at the extremes small enough in the final print so that the eye resolves them as points.

The best way to find the optimum aperture for any given scene is to identify the extremes, i.e., the objects farthest from the plane of sharp focus on either side, and find the best compromise between depth of field and diffraction.

One can do this visually: Say one makes 16x20 prints from 4x5 negatives. That's a 4x enlargement without cropping. So, one could simply get a 4x loupe and spend time examining the extremes under the loupe at different taking apertures until one found the best one. Or, one can use a method where one measures focus spread between the two extremes and then selects the optimum f-stop based on a table that takes all the parameters (depth of field, diffraction, degree of enlargement, viewing distance) into account. Or one can use depth-of-field tables for the focal-length lens used after measuring the distance from the camera of the near and far extremes.

Any of these work; simply using f/22 for everything won't. In my experience with real life subjects and the kind of depth of field I want, I end up using f/32 more than any other stop on 4x5. My 16x20 prints made from negatives at that aperture show no noticeable sign of diffraction. (Note: for 8x10 and a 16x20 print, this would be good old f/64, just like the group - that's for a 2x enlargement of an 8x10 negative too. For contact prints from 8x10 negatives, one could easily use f/90 or smaller. I'm sure Edward Weston did. kfed1984, take notice).

And, as Drew astutely points out above, judicious use of camera movements can help optimize the aperture as well by reducing the necessary depth of field.

I'll use f/45 if needed, making a note that a smaller print will be optimum. Still, I have never run across a case where stopping down for depth of field wasn't better for the final image than using a larger aperture for less diffraction degradation and the resulting reduced depth of field.

My point being: there are better ways of finding the optimum aperture for a scene than just using f/22 or whatever. And, that depth of field trumps diffraction almost every time. Furthermore, diffraction degradation really only becomes apparent at very, very small apertures and/or high degrees of enlargements. If you're making 11x14 and 16x20 prints from 4x5 negatives, you shouldn't be worrying about f/32.

Best,

Doremus
Since DOF changes depending on lens, shouldn't that be part of the analysis as well?
 
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And this is the simple takeaway from all this. Or similarly up to f/64 on 8x10 at even 32x40, never mind the contact prints almost everyone makes from 8x10 (how many of us have an 8x10 enlarger and 300 mm enlarging lens?).

OK I'll switch my nominal setting to f/32 from f/22 for 4x5.
 

kfed1984

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How much? What about a laser print of it.

Here is a price list for a C-type print, from a digital file. Maybe you can scan the negative first.

Here's for black and white on Ilford paper.
 

Mike Lopez

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Thank you. This probably explains why Edward Weston used exposures lasting for hours for his still life and pepper prints. Probably the depth of field control at macro level required even higher f-numbers, and hence long exposures.

Keep in mind: those exposures were typically made indoors, on films with speeds that you could count to with only two hands...
 

MarkS

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All that is true; sometimes Weston hand-cut a smaller diaphragm (Waterhouse stop) because his lens would not stop down far enough. And there are numerous references in his Daybooks to the long exposures necessary- reciprocity failure no doubt played its part too. Any number of his exposures were ruined, hours in, when someone stepped onto his sun porch and shook the setup. Of course printing 8x10 by contact tends to make diffraction less important.. no doubt EW was aware of all these things and fine-tuned his practice to get his remarkable results.
 

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All that is true; sometimes Weston hand-cut a smaller diaphragm (Waterhouse stop) because his lens would not stop down far enough. And there are numerous references in his Daybooks to the long exposures necessary- reciprocity failure no doubt played its part too. Any number of his exposures were ruined, hours in, when someone stepped onto his sun porch and shook the setup. Of course printing 8x10 by contact tends to make diffraction less important.. no doubt EW was aware of all these things and fine-tuned his practice to get his remarkable results.

If you read his daybooks, some exposures seemed to require most of the day to make and could be ruined by a truck driving by. Also, compositions such as the stacked shells seem quite precarious and subject to falling over at any instant. Add to that his equipment was not always light-tight with bad holders, warped backs and leaky bellows, the effects of which are much worse over long exposures. A lot of film was ruined.
 

kfed1984

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Here's for black and white on Ilford paper.
Need to mention that dimensions in this pricelist, for laser printing on Ilford paper, are in CM not IN. So a 16x20" print is about $140 and 8x10" about $60. I will stick to my own printing, and maybe make an enlarger from my 8x10 camera.
1696644917648.png
 
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Since DOF changes depending on lens, shouldn't that be part of the analysis as well?
It is. With DoF tables, the focal length is listed; you look up things in the column of the lens you are using.

With the visual method, you're observing the limits of the DoF with whatever lens you have mounted.

With the focus spread method, the focus spread changes depending on the DoF of the lens you are focusing with, which depends on focal length.

Best,

Doremus
 
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OK I'll switch my nominal setting to f/32 from f/22 for 4x5.
Alan,

The whole point of my earlier post was to get you to think in terms of what depth of field is required for the subject you are photographing and not to just use some arbitrary f-stop that you think will work for everything. Some subjects with shallow DoF requirements will be best at f/22 or even f/16 depending on the lens you are using (90mm and shorter lenses often have optimum apertures of f/16 for flat subjects). Close work with a long lens may require f/45. And, there's a whole world of in-between apertures. I work in 1/3-stop increments and often set my aperture on either side of the whole-stop markings.

Take the time to learn one of the methods for determining the optimum f-stop and your results will be better.

Doremus
 

DREW WILEY

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There are several aspects. First, you need the right aperture setting to assure full image circle coverage of your film, including any potential view camera movements. Then of course, you need to key that to a realistic shutter speed, depending on wind, film speed, and so forth.

But what constitutes "correct" depth of field itself is largely an esthetic question, along with the degree of magnification intended in the actual print itself, if any. No rote formula or standardized f-stop setting is a substitute for the image simply looking "right" on the ground glass itself. That is easier to evaluate on the bigger screen of 8x10 than 4x5, but it works just the same in principle. You are the only one who can decide how you want your own images to look, and what detail to emphasize in the scene using acute focus, and what should be de-emphasized instead, if anything.
 

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there may be too much field curvature as the lens is not a proper enlarger lens.

At least as of a couple years ago, "process" lenses were relatively inexpensive. They're optimized for flat field and reproduction ratios from 1:4 to 4:1 (originally intended for copying a negative to a printing plate or similar operations). They don't come in shutters, normally, but you don't need a shutter for an enlarger, you control exposure time with the light source. You just need a way to mount it to a compatible lens board.
 
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Alan,

The whole point of my earlier post was to get you to think in terms of what depth of field is required for the subject you are photographing and not to just use some arbitrary f-stop that you think will work for everything. Some subjects with shallow DoF requirements will be best at f/22 or even f/16 depending on the lens you are using (90mm and shorter lenses often have optimum apertures of f/16 for flat subjects). Close work with a long lens may require f/45. And, there's a whole world of in-between apertures. I work in 1/3-stop increments and often set my aperture on either side of the whole-stop markings.

Take the time to learn one of the methods for determining the optimum f-stop and your results will be better.

Doremus

If I'm shooting without tilts, than I use the standard DOF table for the specific lens which is my practice with MF as well. With tilts, I'm not so sure so I'll use the near and far points I used for the tilts.
 
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If I'm shooting without tilts, than I use the standard DOF table for the specific lens which is my practice with MF as well. With tilts, I'm not so sure so I'll use the near and far points I used for the tilts.
Alan,

You've pointed out one of the disadvantages of using DoF tables with view cameras. Once you apply tilts or swings, you've changed the position of the plane of sharp focus in the scene, making determining the close and far focusing distances difficult. Using the near and far points for the tilts should do the trick, however.

For me, estimating the near distances also a problem - "is that rock 8 feet away? or 9, or 7? ...

I like the focus spread method best for precision. There's a bit of a expenditure of effort to get your initial table set up, but once that's done, it's super easy in the field.

Best,

Doremus
 
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