Alan, it's all in the final visual effect. 8x10 photography depends on juggling several things : attaining sufficient depth of field (which is half of that of a comparable 4X5 perspective - in other words, if you get you're desired depth of field at f/22 in 4x5, you'd need twice that, f/45, to get the same depth on 8x10, because you'd need twice as long a focal length lens.
You also have to factor film flatness. For critical work, I use adhesive or vacuum holders for 8x10. With 4x5, standardizing on f/32 instead of f/22 has the benefit of better handling film flatness issues.
I don't like to tempt diffraction; but for my levels of enlargement, that limits me to f/64 or preferably f/45 with 8x10, or f/32 in 4x5 work. But a contact printer can get away with much smaller stops because he's after only a 1X scale of reproduction.
But yeah, vignetting is a factor too. For instance, I have certain 240 and 250 lenses which easily cover 4x5 format at wide f/stops, but might need to be stopped down to f/45 or f/64 just to competently cover 8x10 with significant movements involved, like front tilt or rise.
I guess AA really had to stop the lens down to get everything into focus, maybe f/64. I tried 8x10 on subjects this close at f/8 and only some of the scene goes into fine focus, the rest is a blur. Although the site says the exposure for this shot was 1/2 sec, so maybe not f/64.
I really should send out a favorite for printing real large like 32" x 40".
Basically I shoot f/22 because someone told me that's a good place to start when I took up 4x5 LF photography during Covid for the first time. I'll switch to f/32 if I think the DOF requires that based on DOF charts I use. I don't worry much if I'm using 90mm or 75mm with 4x5 because of the greater DOF anyway with those lenses. Mainly its when I shoot 150mm or 300mm with 4x5 that I wonder. Considering your guidelines, I probably shouldn't worry too much as I don't print that large anyway. The "fun" for me with LF photography is the technique and handling which can get frustrating at times as well. I really should send out a favorite for printing real large like 32" x 40".
If you're making 11x14 and 16x20 prints from 4x5 negatives, you shouldn't be worrying about f/32.
Get ready to open up your wallet for a nice silver gelatin print that size.
Thank you. This probably explains why Edward Weston used exposures lasting for hours for his still life and pepper prints. Probably the depth of field control at macro level required even higher f-numbers, and hence long exposures.Any of these work; simply using f/22 for everything won't. In my experience with real life subjects and the kind of depth of field I want, I end up using f/32 more than any other stop on 4x5. My 16x20 prints made from negatives at that aperture show no noticeable sign of diffraction. (Note: for 8x10 and a 16x20 print, this would be good old f/64, just like the group - that's for a 2x enlargement of an 8x10 negative too. For contact prints from 8x10 negatives, one could easily use f/90 or smaller. I'm sure Edward Weston did. kfed1984, take notice).
I was thinking of using the 8x10 camera as the enlarger, maybe with a macro lens. Basically you're got everything you need. The tilt/shift, and bellows allow for all zoom adjustments.And this is the simple takeaway from all this. Or similarly up to f/64 on 8x10 at even 32x40, never mind the contact prints almost everyone makes from 8x10 (how many of us have an 8x10 enlarger and 300 mm enlarging lens?).
Since DOF changes depending on lens, shouldn't that be part of the analysis as well?The suggestion to use f/22 or f/16 on most LF lenses is because that is the sweet spot where stopping down has ameliorated lens aberrations and the effect of diffraction is still small. However, that only applies to the plane of sharp focus itself (which is what the lens manufacturers are basing their tests and specifications on). Once depth of field comes into play, then the extremes of the scene that one desires to have in sharp focus become the operating parameters and the effects of diffraction need to be balanced with acceptable sharpness at those extremes.
The optimum aperture for any given scene, then, depends on the focusing distance between the near and far objects in the scene that one wants to have acceptably sharp in a particular size print at a particular viewing distance. The idea is to have the out-of-focus points at the extremes small enough in the final print so that the eye resolves them as points.
The best way to find the optimum aperture for any given scene is to identify the extremes, i.e., the objects farthest from the plane of sharp focus on either side, and find the best compromise between depth of field and diffraction.
One can do this visually: Say one makes 16x20 prints from 4x5 negatives. That's a 4x enlargement without cropping. So, one could simply get a 4x loupe and spend time examining the extremes under the loupe at different taking apertures until one found the best one. Or, one can use a method where one measures focus spread between the two extremes and then selects the optimum f-stop based on a table that takes all the parameters (depth of field, diffraction, degree of enlargement, viewing distance) into account. Or one can use depth-of-field tables for the focal-length lens used after measuring the distance from the camera of the near and far extremes.
Any of these work; simply using f/22 for everything won't. In my experience with real life subjects and the kind of depth of field I want, I end up using f/32 more than any other stop on 4x5. My 16x20 prints made from negatives at that aperture show no noticeable sign of diffraction. (Note: for 8x10 and a 16x20 print, this would be good old f/64, just like the group - that's for a 2x enlargement of an 8x10 negative too. For contact prints from 8x10 negatives, one could easily use f/90 or smaller. I'm sure Edward Weston did. kfed1984, take notice).
And, as Drew astutely points out above, judicious use of camera movements can help optimize the aperture as well by reducing the necessary depth of field.
I'll use f/45 if needed, making a note that a smaller print will be optimum. Still, I have never run across a case where stopping down for depth of field wasn't better for the final image than using a larger aperture for less diffraction degradation and the resulting reduced depth of field.
My point being: there are better ways of finding the optimum aperture for a scene than just using f/22 or whatever. And, that depth of field trumps diffraction almost every time. Furthermore, diffraction degradation really only becomes apparent at very, very small apertures and/or high degrees of enlargements. If you're making 11x14 and 16x20 prints from 4x5 negatives, you shouldn't be worrying about f/32.
Best,
Doremus
And this is the simple takeaway from all this. Or similarly up to f/64 on 8x10 at even 32x40, never mind the contact prints almost everyone makes from 8x10 (how many of us have an 8x10 enlarger and 300 mm enlarging lens?).
How much? What about a laser print of it.
Thank you. This probably explains why Edward Weston used exposures lasting for hours for his still life and pepper prints. Probably the depth of field control at macro level required even higher f-numbers, and hence long exposures.
All that is true; sometimes Weston hand-cut a smaller diaphragm (Waterhouse stop) because his lens would not stop down far enough. And there are numerous references in his Daybooks to the long exposures necessary- reciprocity failure no doubt played its part too. Any number of his exposures were ruined, hours in, when someone stepped onto his sun porch and shook the setup. Of course printing 8x10 by contact tends to make diffraction less important.. no doubt EW was aware of all these things and fine-tuned his practice to get his remarkable results.
Need to mention that dimensions in this pricelist, for laser printing on Ilford paper, are in CM not IN. So a 16x20" print is about $140 and 8x10" about $60. I will stick to my own printing, and maybe make an enlarger from my 8x10 camera.Here's for black and white on Ilford paper.
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It is. With DoF tables, the focal length is listed; you look up things in the column of the lens you are using.Since DOF changes depending on lens, shouldn't that be part of the analysis as well?
Alan,OK I'll switch my nominal setting to f/32 from f/22 for 4x5.
there may be too much field curvature as the lens is not a proper enlarger lens.
Alan,
The whole point of my earlier post was to get you to think in terms of what depth of field is required for the subject you are photographing and not to just use some arbitrary f-stop that you think will work for everything. Some subjects with shallow DoF requirements will be best at f/22 or even f/16 depending on the lens you are using (90mm and shorter lenses often have optimum apertures of f/16 for flat subjects). Close work with a long lens may require f/45. And, there's a whole world of in-between apertures. I work in 1/3-stop increments and often set my aperture on either side of the whole-stop markings.
Take the time to learn one of the methods for determining the optimum f-stop and your results will be better.
Doremus
Alan,If I'm shooting without tilts, than I use the standard DOF table for the specific lens which is my practice with MF as well. With tilts, I'm not so sure so I'll use the near and far points I used for the tilts.
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