Ansco 130

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Ray Bidegain, Dec 26, 2003.

  1. DREW WILEY

    DREW WILEY Member

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    I buy my glycin powder from PF, usually two bottles at a time, one for use within 6 mo or so, the other goes into the freezer to keep it fresh. I mix 130 per session. The PF formulation of 130 is the classic one. No problem there. But it has a limited shelf life.
     
  2. esearing

    esearing Member

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    PF130 Kit was mixed fresh. Perhaps it is merely the definition of DMAX that we are disagreeing on since that represents a sensiometric measurment . To my eye, Classic has strong tonal separation and very deep blacks even when using a developer like LPD 1:1 Or Ilford Multigrade. The shadows tend to go dark quickly while midtones maintain good separation. Warmtone to my eye (and perhaps way of developing) seems to have more open shadows with more detail visible than with classic. In LPD I get very subtle midtone separation that makes the images seem softer overall but the details in things like pine needles or trees at a distance are well defined. Water is more silver-ish in Classic than in warmtone, though I think that is the way I burn it in with a slower pace in warmtone.
    I think of Classic as having 10 zones of tone vs Warmtone having 15 zones with more shades of mid to dark grey.

    Using PF130 I seem to get more detail out of Classic than I do with other developers. But using LPD with warmtone I get more detail than I do with Classic but have less true black. I like the slower working pace of Warmtone + dilute developer and usually prefer the resulting softer image since I shoot mostly rocks,water, and trees/forest. However once in a rare shot, I capture items with more contrast and the Classic paper look is a better choice. Then I muck it all up using different toners.
     
  3. DREW WILEY

    DREW WILEY Member

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    You should try Cooltone too, though you won't get a true cold tone with 130 on it. I prefer a cold amidol tone for the high altitude work I do, but sometimes have to resort to MGWT and gold toner to get the sheer punch I want. Even the last premium cold graded paper, Ilfobrom, can't quite get there. Classic is a fine paper but a bit finicky. It's nice for when MGWT is simply over the top.
     
  4. esearing

    esearing Member

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    Update: I got about 6 months out of the liter of stock that I purchased before an experiment went awry and I had to throw it out. It had turned dark brown by that time but still worked and did not appear to stain the paper. I ordered more along with some Bergger NB Variable Contrast Neutral Glossy paper. In my initial first few prints, the Bergger paper seems very fast compared to Ilford MGFB Classic and much colder in tone when using Photographers Formulary 130 even at a 1:2 dilution. Its a nice combination but requires about a 1/2 grade less contrast filter and up to 1/3 stop less exposure compared to Ilford Classic.
     
  5. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    hi drew
    what has the limited shelf life --- the developer ( stock or mixed ) or the glycin ?
    glycin goes bad but 130 has about 1year as a stock solution, and about 30 days in a tray ...
     
  6. DREW WILEY

    DREW WILEY Member

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    I was referring to to glycin powder. I always keep a spare bottle of the powder in the freezer, unopened. Once opened, it begins to slowly oxidize, evident from the gradual shift in color from light tan to mocha, to deep chocolate brown, to blackish brown. At a certain point it will actually stain the paper base. I suppose storage heat might also be a factor in how fast this transpires. But I live in a temperate climate, and here the shelf life of glycin powder is about a year; but I use up a bottle
    faster than that. I never keep mixed 130 around more than a couple weeks, even in full glass bottles. There is a subtle color shift with that too; but I'm not going to waste any glycin figuring out the specifics. I always mix just enough developer for a one-day session, then dump it at the end of the session.
     
  7. esearing

    esearing Member

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    I did the math on keeping bulk chemicals around to produce 20 liters of stock solution. The thing that made it uneconomical was the Glycin due to its short shelf life. Even if you ordered it frequently you would have any savings diminished by shipping costs.
    The Photographers Formulary kits are priced perfectly unless you are a printing business and need large volumes. For an occasional printer like me, the 4 liter kit is a good buy, but the 8 liter kit is even better if you have a friend to split it with.
     
  8. Steve Goldstein

    Steve Goldstein Subscriber

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    Eric, I'd say I'm also an occasional printer.

    I've been slowly working through a 1-lb bottle of glycin for a few years now. It lives in the deep freeze, double-bagged with an inner black plastic bag and an outer heavy-grade zip-close bag. I take it out a day before I plan to mix a batch of 130 and put it back as soon as I'm done. Giving it a day to come to room temperature eliminates any risk of condensation and internal moisture. I haven't noticed any issues. FYI in case you decide to move away from the kits.
     
  9. RPC

    RPC Member

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    I store glycin similarly, and over several years it has kept well.
     
  10. juan

    juan Subscriber

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    I store glycin the same way. I once mixed a developer with 5 year old glycin as the only developing agent. It worked just fine.
     
  11. craigclu

    craigclu Subscriber

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    I was under the assumption from previous discussions over the years that getting it into solution was the way keep glycin's activity level at the correct levels.... I'm going to give it a try in the freezer. I've had good experience mixing 1.75 liter batches in plastic liquor bottles and being a few bottles ahead that gives me some time to coordinate my next glycin order. I also recall someone saying that PF either makes or restocks once per year so there could be a chance of receiving rather aged glycin, just from a timing aspect. Does anyone know about that with any certainty?
     
  12. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    May your glycin last as long as this thread has!
     
  13. destroya

    destroya Subscriber

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    I freeze mine. my current batch is over 3 years old and looks just like when I bought it.

    I remember reading a thread posted here that PF makes a new batch every month. I assume that is still case, but you could call and ask
     
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  15. DREW WILEY

    DREW WILEY Member

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    PF doesn't make the chemicals. They package them and distribute them. In certain cases, they obviously mix ingredients
    for sake of convenience or perhaps due to proprietary formulation. In the case of 130 developer, you can either buy it in dry kit form, or buy the separate ingredients. Since glycin is the only component with a limited shelf life benefitting from freezing, I prefer to buy glycin and the other necessary ingredients individually, and mix them as needed.
     
  16. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    hi drew

    PF acutally MAKES the glycin .. about once a month ...
     
  17. DREW WILEY

    DREW WILEY Member

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    What makes you think that? It can be ordered in volume right from Spectrum or other big chem mfg. I just pulled a bottle
    out of the freezer I received from PF and the labeling didn't look anything like their label machine, but Spectrum's.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2018
  18. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    cause i they told me they do ...
    i didn't think they had a reason to lie about it ..
    ive never got glycin powder in a bottle before
    whenever i get it from PF its always in a sealed bag .
    maybe you are talking about something else
    and for some reason i thinkyou are saying glycin
    sorry if i misunderstood you ..
     
  19. Wayne

    Wayne Subscriber

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    As John indicates PF makes their own glycin, unless they've changed their ways. I've also discussed it with them on the phone. However, my glycin has always come in a bottle as Drew says. Maybe you are ordering smaller amounts John? I usually get the 100 gram IIRC. I still have some in the freezer but haven't ordered any in at least a half dozen years.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2018
  20. DREW WILEY

    DREW WILEY Member

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    I order multiple 100g bottles, and the last two times they've been in labeling unquestionably from a big company, just like the Spectrum glycin I used to get from Bryant Labs locally, or other kinds of specialty chem from scientific suppliers lately. Before that, PS bottles were different, primitively labeled with the detail sheet taped on, just like all their other house chem. But my last purchase was two years ago, and the glycin just thawed is still off-white, so has remained in excellent condition frozen. I dunno. Perhaps they fill in sometimes and formulate sometimes. But why would they go to that bother if there's a reliable industrial source? I'll order more from them in a month or so. Their glycin has been reliable; amidol not so (came from China).
    More likely, you misunderstood what they told you : they measure out and bag their 130 kits themselves. Yes. But this doesn't
    necessarily mean they make the bulk individual chemical components.
     
  21. Wayne

    Wayne Subscriber

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    Thanks for the free condescension but I actually had a conversation with them about how awful it is to make, and how they make it right there at PF, and how everyone there knows when its glycin day. That conversation was probably 10-11 years ago so things could have changed, but I didn't misunderstand anything.
     
  22. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    hi Wayne yeah I wasn’t buying bulk but in a kit
    So it was in a bag I guess... I bought some 130 a couple of months ago and asked when glycin day was ... and it was a few days before I put my order in.
    Drew no clue about the labels.. why not call and ask bud or the nice lady
    Who answers the phone... I think the amidol you mention is
    The mythic haul that Michael smith and the azo/lodima crowd bought
    I don’t ever use it so I wouldn’t know how good or bad it is/was...
     
  23. esearing

    esearing Member

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    So now need a freezer for the darkroom to hold Glycin, film, and other stuff. So cost of Glycin + fridge + electricity still makes homebrew more expensive unless you do it for several years. But not having to wait for 10-14 days for mail may be worth it.
     
  24. DREW WILEY

    DREW WILEY Member

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    Overall, I've been very pleased with PF, so really don't care how they source their glycin as long as it remains consistent. But a lot of different parties apparently got suckered into that massive batch of amidol from China, which appears to be contaminated with nickel. It creates an orange stain which is hell to wash out. I tuned to Artcraft for my amidol needs; theirs is European. Freezers: Think of it as an investment account. Much of the sheet film currently in my freezer has TRIPLED in price since I bought that film. And that film should be good at least another decade. So by installing a freezer, I've already saved twenty times as much money as that big freezer itself cost.
     
  25. Wayne

    Wayne Subscriber

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    People didnt pay normal amidol prices for that Chinese batch so at least they didnt lose amidol prices when that batch turned out sour. I was tempted to chip in and try amidol but it seemed too good to be true so I didn't. I still havent. Lucky guess, I guess. I'd rather use Ansco 130 with phenidone anyway.
     
  26. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    you remember that too?
    it was alike a bad spy novel ... that took like 2 years !
    from what i understand from people who
    regularly do work with factories &c over there
    is you have to have someone on the ground over there who you trust
    who does quality control, to assure you that what you are getting
    is what you paid for, and it isn't just the sample that is what you paid for ...
    ansco 130 with phenione? does the phenidone take the place of the metol gram for gram ?
    sorry to ask the secrets of your recipe ...
     
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