Ansco 130

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Ray Bidegain, Dec 26, 2003.

  1. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    hi andy

    usually the more dilute you use the developer the warmer it tends to be.
    ( or at least that is my experience ) i have left it in a tray, and it gets dark in color,
    but works well still. even dark as cocacola it will work. i sometimes save a bunch of the
    black stuff for processing paper negatives, or i use it in tandem with a coffee based developer
    alternating between the 2 baths, sometimes i cut fresh developer with
    the dark-stuff to take "the edge" off. i have only used it once until it was completely exhausted and it took
    a long time to get that to happen.
    i just opened another gallon ( i buy and mix 7 gallons at once ) it was mixed about a year ago, and
    the prints i just posted in the gallery today were processed in it ...

    have fun!
    john
     
  2. brian steinberger

    brian steinberger Member

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    I just wanted to add that I just started using 130 BZT, which is Evan Clarke's variation on 130. Omit the bromide and substitute 15ml of 1% solution of benzotriazole per liter of working solution. Also up the carbonate. Dilute 1:3 for 3 minutes. I've only used this developer with MGIV FB so far and am impressed. The tones are wonderful, as always with 130, but now cooler. Just slightly cooler than LPD, but more cooler once selenium toned. I toned in Kodak selenium at 1:9 for 6 minutes and it cooled down very nicely.

    I still have yet to try 130 BZT with MGWT but that is what I'm really excited about. I want to see just how much it will cool it down.
     
  3. Mark Layne

    Mark Layne Member

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    Works beautifully -dilute 1:1 or 1:2
    Have been hoping you would post some of your work again Francesco!
    Mark
     
  4. Luseboy

    Luseboy Member

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    So I've been using the same bottle of Photographer formulary 130 for about 8 months now, it still works beautifully... is this normal? It seems a bit excessivley long... I've probably run about 150 sheets of 8x10 total. It just keeps going! and it still has great contrast at 2 minutes, it still is great. the only thing is that it had some black particulate, but i filtered it out with a paper towel last night when i put the developer back in it's bottle... How much longer is this stuff gonna last? I've got a coffe can full of some old ansco stuff (amidol i think) that is supposed to make 10 gallons of working solution, which i am itching to mix up...
     
  5. TheFlyingCamera

    TheFlyingCamera Membership Council Council

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    That's one of the great strengths of 130 - it lasts like Rodinal does. it takes a LOT to kill it.
     
  6. Vlad Soare

    Vlad Soare Member

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    There's something I don't understand. What is it that gives Ansco 130 such a long life? It doesn't have more sulfite than regular metol-hydroquinone developers. The amounts of metol, hydroquinone and carbonate are also quite common. The amount of bromide is admittedly a little higher than usual, but I doubt that it has any effect on the keeping properties.
    So it must be the glycin. But how can glycin influence the oxidation rate of the metol and hydroquinone? A few scenarios spring to mind:

    1. The glycin somehow replenishes the metol and/or hydroquinone.
    2. The glycin oxidizes, and its oxidation products somehow replenish the metol and/or hydroquinone.
    3. The glycin oxidizes, and its oxidation products somehow inhibit the oxidation of the metol and/or hydroquinone, acting like a sort of preservative.
    4. The glycin oxidizes faster than the metol and hydroquinone, and by oxidizing it uses up the oxygen in the solution, so that the metol and hydroquinone cannot oxidize as fast as they would otherwise.
    5. The glycin is so active that it can develop normally despite the oxidation of the metol and/or hydroquinone. In other words, the developer works fine with or without metol/hydroquinone and doesn't care if they oxidize.

    I think it would be interesting to mix a batch without glycin and one with glycin only (no metol or hydroquinone), and to compare them with a regular batch of 130. Has anybody tried this yet?
     
  7. eclarke

    eclarke Member

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    My stock lasts a long,long time. I use it at 1+3 73 degrees because that's where I like my prints the best. The stuff will function for a long time but after about 20 11x14 prints and/or 8 hours starts to change a bit. Developer is cheap and paper is expensive so I throw it out at that point..Evan Clarke
     
  8. Murray Kelly

    Murray Kelly Subscriber

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    Vlad said:
    I think it would be interesting to mix a batch without glycin and one with glycin only (no metol or hydroquinone), and to compare them with a regular batch of 130. Has anybody tried this yet?

    Vlad, cast your optics on #112 above. Half your question is answered. D-72
     
  9. Vlad Soare

    Vlad Soare Member

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    OK, so 130 without glycin and with less bromide is more or less like Dektol. But Dektol doesn't live too long once diluted, and adding a lot of bromide to it isn't going to extend its useful life (at least I don't think so - please correct me if I'm wrong). So the outstanding keeping properties of the 130 must have something to do with the glycin.
    So, either the glycin slows down the decomposition of the metol and/or hydroquinone, or it's active enough to develop on its own even after the metol and hydroquinone have long oxidized. If the latter were true, then the 130 should work more or less normally without any metol or hydroquinone.
    Or maybe the glycin can't work normally on its own, but it's so extremely superadditive to metol and hydroquinone that it only requires a slight amount of them to get started. I mean, perhaps it doesn't care if 90% of the metol is oxidized, because the remaining 10% is enough.

    I'd really like to know what exactly it is that gives this developer its unusually long life. Any ideas?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 18, 2011
  10. Murray Kelly

    Murray Kelly Subscriber

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    A-ha! There's the rub. All good questions but after pages and pages nobody has actually addressed that point.

    Does anyone actually have an answer? Is it something to do with the glycin molecular structure?
     
  11. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    agfa did make a print developer that was similar to their 130
    but without either the h-q or metol ... but unfortunately i can't
    put my finger on what it was called ... agfa 2 ?
    ... i don't know if it had the staying/keeping power of 130 ...
    maybe it was the 3 agents all working together ?

    df cardwell used to use the developer i am trying to think of
    ... if he were here, might have answers to these questions he knew this sort of stuff ...
     
  12. DREW WILEY

    DREW WILEY Member

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    Without a little bit of metol, the glycin doesn't seem to work at all. My guess is that it is something
    superadditive.
     
  13. cjbecker

    cjbecker Member

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    On a different note, I have been comparing 130 and pf liquidol. After many prints the 130 has come out on top. The 130 has more contrast and better tonality (for me). It has a higher Dmax and amazing highlights but you lose some of the middle tones. (That is how I like my prints.) It also makes the image sharper because of the contrast. The liquidol has amazing tray life, and ease of use. The middle tones are where it shines. It has a smoother look to it and less contrast. It does make skin look very beautiful. They both are great developers but 130 fits my taste.
     
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  15. JPD

    JPD Member

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    Who came up with the formula, Agfa or Ansco?
     
  16. Photo Formulary/ Bud

    Photo Formulary/ Bud Member

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    What is now commonly known as "130" was originally called "ANSCO 130" Universal paper developer.

    I have in my hands a book titled "Ansco Formulas" for black and white photography. This book is a
    "Revised to July 1946" edition, 36 pages, giving 50 formulas, and the procedures for use of those formulas. Some of which, as of that publication, were prepackaged for sale and others that were apparantly just published.
    Price 10 cents.

    The formula that Photographers Formulary packages today is the exact formula that is published in that book.The formula is as follows to make 1 liter.
    Metol 2.2 grams
    Sodium sulifite 50 grams
    Hydroquinone 11 grams
    Sodium Carbonate Monohydrate 78 grams
    Potassium Bromide 5.5 grams
    Glycin 11 grams

    "This formula is a universal developer for all projection and contact papers. It gives rich black tones with excellent brilliance and detail. Ansco 130 provides unusual latitude in development and is clean working even with long development times."
    "The prepared stock solution is clear but slightly colored. The coloration in this case does not indicate the developer has deteriorated or is unfit for use."
    "For use, dilute 1 part stock solution with 1 part water."
    "Normal developing time at 68 F (20 C)" then a list of no longer available paper is listed, but development time is listed from 1 to 6 minutes depending on paper.
    "Greater contrast can be obtained by using the developer stock solution full strength. Softer results can be obtained by diluting 1 part stock solution with 2 parts water."

    There you go. That is the info supplied in 1946 in a promotional pamphlet from Ansco.
    Hope that helps. 49 other Ansco formulas in pamphlet if anybody needs clarification on other Ansco product. Including film and paper developers, toners, fixers, intensifiers, reducers, hardener formulas,desensitizers.

    Hope this helps out.
    Thanxs
    Bud
     
  17. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Incorrect it was originally called Agfa 130 by Agfa-Ansco in their earlier books of Fomulas, later GAF renamed all the formulae Ansco after the US Government had siezed the company and renamed it no longer using the Agfa name.

    So to answer JPD, Agfa-Ansco in the US, which was owned by Agfa, Germany,came up with the formula. Agfa were already trading in the US many years befrore they bought Ansco. The US Agfa-Ansco formulae differ from the German formulae of the same number a few were made by both.

    Ian
     
  18. Shawn Dougherty

    Shawn Dougherty Subscriber

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    Interesting. Thanks, Bud! I've been using nothing but PF130 for a couple of years now and couldn't be happier.


     
  19. Photo Formulary/ Bud

    Photo Formulary/ Bud Member

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    Thanxs Ian for the correction. I had no intention of spewing bad info. My bad.
    The antique photo books are all over my desk this morning, which haven't been for a while.
    A 1940 edition of "Little Technical Library, Darkroom Handbook and Formulary" shows AGFA 130-Universal paper developer. It has the exact copy as the Ansco book I quoted in above post. I quess I just didn't go back far enough before my original post. This also shows Gevaert as a stand alone company.?
    Maybe you could give us all a history lesson as to how these companies evolved, merged, and disappeared.
    Heck I even found Eastman D1.
    Thanxs again Ian
    Bud
     
  20. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Bud unfortunately the use of the Agfa name/numbers cause confusion because they don't match the European/German Agfa formula numbers, so it's now best to refer to these old Agfa Ansco formulae as Ansco or Agfa-Ansco.

    Gevaert were a separate Belgian company until they merged with Agfa in 1963, their products were also made in in Germany, France and Spain. In Gemany they operated as Voightlander-Gevaert, their products often being sold under the Voightlander brand name.

    With Agfa it gets worse because Orwo continued making Agfa chemistry under the Agfa brand name until they were paid to drop it before Gevaert merged with Agfa. Later after re-unification Orwo split the chemistry division became Calbe.

    Ian
     
  21. JPD

    JPD Member

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    Thanks Ian and Bud! I'm printing out labels for my chem-bottles and since I'm using many Agfa recipes I can also call this one "AGFA 130" from hereafter. I have the book "Agfa Rezepte" from the East German Agfa before it became ORWO, and it doesn't include the 130. Agfa 9 isn't included either, but it's easier to buy in bottles. :wink:
     
  22. Steve Goldstein

    Steve Goldstein Subscriber

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    I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this, so I'll add it to the archive.

    When I mix up 130 stock solution I omit the KBr. This gives me the choice of using KBr or Benzotriazole when I dilute to a working solution, depending on the desired tonality. I normally use 15ml of 1% Benzo solution per liter of stock for a colder tone; this is essentially Evan's recipe (post 72) but I don't bother changing the sodium carbonate, I always use the standard recipe's 78g.

    With KBr the print color is very close to that of Dektol/D-72, at least for Multigrade IV, Fomabrom Variant 111, and Adox MCC110. Benzotriazole gives a colder image.

    Earlier this week I inadvertently omitted the Benzo from a fresh working solution and didn't realize it until the next day when I exposed a test strip on MCC110 and cut it in half. The first half got the non-Benzo developer, then I added the Benzo solution and developed the second half. The non-Benzo version was only slightly warmer, but the difference was very subtle and only noticeable in this side-by-side comparison. I'd printed for the entire previous day without spotting this oversight!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 28, 2012
  23. Steve Goldstein

    Steve Goldstein Subscriber

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    Oh, another thing (two, actually).

    I store my Glycin in the deep freeze, -23F last time I checked. My dwindling year-old supply is still brilliant white.

    And I buy it only in winter. It's cold in Montana, it's cold here in New England, and it's probably cold everywhere in between, so the risk of my shipment baking in a hot truck en route is pretty low.
     
  24. cjbecker

    cjbecker Member

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    For small update, I have had my stock solution of photographer formulary 130 for 3 years in dark glass bottles and it is still working great mixed 1-1. I'm looking at testing it with film. Mixed 1 to 10.
     
  25. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Member

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    How do you process? (Stand/inversion/rotary/somethingelse) and are your negs tending toward fine grain or high Acutance?

    Thanks :smile:
     
  26. craigclu

    craigclu Subscriber

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    What Goldstein said.... Evan's cue to try 130 with the benzotriazole as restrainer can really make prints come alive. It gives a unique and appealing look to WT papers that can look a bit muddy in many soups.
     
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