Advice on seasoning XTOL-R

Andrew O'Neill · Feb 16, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
Too bad Kodak doesn't seem to make this any more. I wonder how hard/expensive it would be to get at least the NaCl and KBr levels tested? I'd rather use a starter when I have to mix a fresh tank solution than season two liters with a ten to twelve rolls.

Too bad PE isn't with us anymore. I bet he would have an answer...

Maris · Feb 16, 2023

My original batch of Xtol-R replenished at a rate of 90ml per film ran from 2007 to 2021 when I decided it was just to murky from accumulated film dyes. My new 2021 batch of Xtol wasn't "seasoned" or "started" but used straight away.
What happened? New Xtol is more active than than its final replenished equilibrium state so my films were slightly over-developed. All I did was change my usual printing contrast from grade#3 to grade#2 and the pictures came out nice. Now after dozens of films the printing contrast is routinely back at #3.
I wonder if the anxiety about seasoning Xtol is worth it.

One change I made was to wash the dyes out of all films before developing in Xtol-R. I don't this second batch to go murky like the first.

Radost · Feb 17, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
Too bad Kodak doesn't seem to make this any more. I wonder how hard/expensive it would be to get at least the NaCl and KBr levels tested? I'd rather use a starter when I have to mix a fresh tank solution than season two liters with a ten to twelve rolls.

Somebody said that C41 starter can be used.

Radost · Feb 17, 2023

Andrew O'Neill said:
Too bad PE isn't with us anymore. I bet he would have an answer...

Yea. So many times when I search on this forum I just start scrolling till I see his picture. RIP PE.

mshchem · Feb 17, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
Too bad Kodak doesn't seem to make this any more. I wonder how hard/expensive it would be to get at least the NaCl and KBr levels tested? I'd rather use a starter when I have to mix a fresh tank solution than season two liters with a ten to twelve rolls.

30 years ago I worked in a lab, would have easy to check. I might try evaporating 25mL see what the dry weight of the crystals are. I'm pretty sure it's predominantly KBr.

Donald Qualls · Feb 17, 2023

Radost said:
Somebody said that C41 starter can be used.

All the other starters Kodak has listed in the document linked in that post were for E-6 first developer; they didn't list the Flexicolor C-41 starter I have on hand.

Radost · Feb 18, 2023

mshchem said:
This is the elusive starter. 24mL per gallon of XTOL stock to season. It looks like it is just KBr and a little NaCl. I tasted it it tastes like KBr. I ran replenished XTOL for years, before that HC-110 dilution B. Not worth worrying too much about.
I use XTOL stock one shot today with the Jobo.
View attachment 329804

But would this season the Xtol? Or it is a non sense product like their bleach starter?

mshchem · Feb 18, 2023

Radost said:
But would this season the Xtol? Or it is a non sense product like their bleach starter?

No this is loaded with KBr. Starters are really important with big machine processing, especially at elevated temperatures.

RA4 developer replenisher really needs starter and dilution. I wasted several hours chasing my tail before it dawned on me I forgot the starter.

MattKing · Feb 18, 2023

Radost said:
But would this season the Xtol? Or it is a non sense product like their bleach starter?

Bleach starter isn't nonsense. But you probably wouldn't benefit from it, unless you are trying to add more bleach to an already stabilized high volume processing line that relies on replenishing the bleach.

Steven Lee · Feb 19, 2023

@MattKing I searched the archives a while ago and found a post where even PE said he had no idea why would someone use a bleach starter. He did not know what it was for. I am too lazy to do it again, but I wasn't able to find any sensible explanation for its existence, so it's pretty close to the definition of nonsense. I suspect this has something to do with replenishing in a high-volume environment, which definitely doesn't apply to us.

Radost · Feb 19, 2023

I am starting the 2 liter seasoning.
Should I just double the 1 liter xtol instruction for 2 liter container ?

Mr Bill · Feb 19, 2023

Steven Lee said:
@MattKing I searched the archives a while ago and found a post where even PE said he had no idea why would someone use a bleach starter. He did not know what it was for. I am too lazy to do it again, but I wasn't able to find any sensible explanation for its existence, so it's pretty close to the definition of nonsense.

Hi, if you look up Kodak CIS-61, pH and specific gravity specs for Kodak chemicals, it shows that there are different pH aim values for the C-41 "tank solution" bleach vs the bleach replenisher.

So if you buy your bleach in the form of replenisher, and try to use it directly, it's most likely not gonna be at the aim value for pH. Now, because of the broad pH tolerances (per CIS-61) it's probably gonna be in a usable range. (Maybe not, though, if tolerances pile up the wrong way.)

Anyway, it seems pretty obvious to me that the main thing with a C-41 bleach starter is to raise the pH of the replenisher, getting it near center of the aim point. So on an amateur basis people probably find that it seems to work fine without a starter. But someone working on a more serious basis would probably prefer to get closer to the pH aim spec.

To others: Sorry about this diversion away from Xtol.

MattKing · Feb 19, 2023

Mr Bill said:
o others: Sorry about this diversion away from Xtol.

It is a good diversion, because it helps people understand what is going on when one works with replenishment.

Donald Qualls · Feb 20, 2023

Radost said:
Should I just double the 1 liter xtol instruction for 2 liter container ?

Exactly -- if you'd normally season for six rolls before replenishing in a 1 liter tank solution, you'll do twelve in 2 liters.

That said, back up thread there's a reference for how much to increase time for each roll previously processed (divide rolls by two for a 2 liter batch); when your time reaches 1+1 times, you'd start replenishing (IIRC it works out the same, but you'll get better consistency during the seasoning process).

Anon Ymous · Feb 20, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
divide rolls by two for a 2 liter batch

Divide? Shouldn't this be multiply?

Donald Qualls · Feb 20, 2023

Anon Ymous said:
Divide? Shouldn't this be multiply?

Divide the ones you've processed by two, or multiply the seasoning capacity by two -- equivalent operations.

Radost · Feb 20, 2023

I did 2 rolls of HP5 and I hate them in stock compared to 1:1.

Steven Lee · Feb 20, 2023

@Radost that's because you did not develop them to the same contrast. HP5+ looks identical in stock, 1+1, and Xtol-R. Set up a test scene, put a camera on a tripod and fire off 36 shots at the same exposure. Having a motorized winder helps. Then cut the roll into 10-12 strips and develop in different developers at 3 different contrast levels each. Then compare. You will also reveal that manufacturer-suggested datasheet times are indeed just approximations.

Radost · Feb 20, 2023

Steven Lee said:
@Radost that's because you did not develop them to the same contrast. HP5+ looks identical in stock, 1+1, and Xtol-R. Set up a test scene, put a camera on a tripod and fire off 36 shots at the same exposure. Having a motorized winder helps. Then cut the roll into 10-12 strips and develop in different developers at 3 different contrast levels each. Then compare. You will also reveal that manufacturer-suggested datasheet times are indeed just approximations.

This is a new stock that has not been seasoned.

Sirius Glass · Feb 20, 2023

Radost said:
This is a new stock that has not been seasoned.

Seasoned XTOL and unseasoned XTOL are so close that one cannot see the difference.

Radost · Feb 20, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Seasoned XTOL and unseasoned XTOL are so close that one cannot see the difference.

Yet 1:1 Xtol and unseasoned stock Xtol have a huge difference?
I was under the impression that seasoned Xtol is even more fine detailed than 1:1.

Steven Lee · Feb 20, 2023

Radost said:
Yet 1:1 Xtol and unseasoned stock Xtol have a huge difference?
I was under the impression that seasoned Xtol is even more fine detailed than 1:1.

You will be hard pressed to find any difference between all 3, assuming you develop them to the same contrast level. The difference is mainly in grain character, 1:1 shows sharper grain (same sized lumps) and Xtol-R somehow packs these lumps slightly closer together. But these differences require a 10x loupe to noice, and only when you jump from one negative to another quickly enough! I seriously doubt you'll see that in reasonably sized prints or on a computer monitor.

Steven Lee · Feb 20, 2023

Attaching full-sized (100% crop) scans of a grey card made with a 60MP camera. Sharpening is set to 0 in Lightroom. HP5+ exposed according to an ambient light meter EI400. This is exactly the same image in my book.

MattKing · Feb 20, 2023

No offence Steven, but if you are going to perceive any difference, it will be in acutance, and it is tough to get any sense of acutance from a photo of a grey card!
The differences are small. If they were the only differences between the three different approaches, I wouldn't be such a fan of replenishment, even though I have a small preference for how the films come out.

Steven Lee · Feb 20, 2023

@MattKing good point. I have not tested for acutance. The grey card test was done for process monitoring.

Advice on seasoning XTOL-R

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