Adventures with Arista Ortho Litho

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grainyvision

grainyvision

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Did a run with conveniently cut and perforated 35mm Ultrafineonline's house brand of Ortho Litho, processed the same way as I do Arista's. PFS-4 1+30 for 3 minutes, D-76 1+3 for 7 minutes. Results look great and easily usable for pictorial results. Actually responds to this process in almost exactly the same way as Kodalith does.

25 ISO:
_0000001.jpg


12 ISO:
_0000002.jpg

50 ISO:


_0000003.jpg


25 ISO with a lot of contrast and detail:
_0000006.jpg


Detail at 25 ISO:

_0000005.jpg


100% crop of detail to show grain:
2019-10-03 23_04_30-_0000005.psd @ 100% (Levels 1, Gray_16_).png


Only concern with this film is that it is apparently extremely susceptible to scratching. I believe most of the scratches came from my camera, which has never shown scratches with any other film before
 
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Nice results especially with EI:12. A bit contrasty for my taste, but quite impressive. I've been experimenting with Svema Micrat Orto ISO 3 film. I'm using a reduced pH catechol developer. Your PFS-4 bath step looks interesting in my context if it can boost my EI by a stop or two.
 
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grainyvision

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I've tried it with that film but didn't have a good enough setup to properly judge if it increased the speed (attempted to do it under an enlarger). It didn't ruin the emulsion of fog it by an extreme amount is all I can say. I have no idea how direct positive film actually works and only guesses to how PFS-4 works, so needless to say I'd recommend doing a clip test with pictures you don't care about. Also note that you may need a higher contrast developer if it does work properly. If you get very low contrast results that don't seem to be increased in speed, try it again in a higher contrast developer before drawing final conclusions. Many low contrast developers will hold back speed as part of how they function.
 
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grainyvision

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For anyone finding this in the future, partly to own my own content, and partly to actually be capable of editing posts, I've created a dedicated blog to film experiments like this. I finally got my notes on Ortho Litho film processing typed up and summarized along with plenty of "actual result" pictures, rather than just test charts. I'll edit the blog post as needed in the future and most likely will not post anything else on this thread.

https://grainy.vision/blog/ortho-litho-reference
 

alanrockwood

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For anyone finding this in the future, partly to own my own content, and partly to actually be capable of editing posts, I've created a dedicated blog to film experiments like this. I finally got my notes on Ortho Litho film processing typed up and summarized along with plenty of "actual result" pictures, rather than just test charts. I'll edit the blog post as needed in the future and most likely will not post anything else on this thread.

https://grainy.vision/blog/ortho-litho-reference

Thanks.
 

adelorenzo

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I'm currently using solarization (Sabattier effect) to create enlarged negatives as a direct positive process. Underexposing and then flashing during development. In my case I'm trying to create border lines and solarized effects as well but you can create a very true copy of the neg in one step.

Also just got through my supplies of the older 2.0 version. The 3.0 seems to give better results and is much more promising in terms of durability.
 
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mohmad khatab

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If you were going to accept the advice of an Egyptian man who is sometimes overlooked and crazy.
Crazy movie needs a crazy guy, and a crazy developer.
I advise you to use the underwater developer (AGFA-14).
It must be prepared using
deionized water.

- You must keep the temperature steady from the beginning of the process until the end of it, (you should place the tank in a container with some ice if necessary)
21 minutes developer at 18 ° C, with continuous stirring non-stop, at 32 RPM speed.
- Trust me ,,
After that process ,, you will be sure that all previous experiences were a waste of time and effort.
- I am waiting for you to tell me, thank you Monsieur Muhammad.
 
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grainyvision

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If you were going to accept the advice of an Egyptian man who is sometimes overlooked and crazy.
Crazy movie needs a crazy guy, and a crazy developer.
I advise you to use the underwater developer (AGFA-14).
It must be prepared using
deionized water.

- You must keep the temperature steady from the beginning of the process until the end of it, (you should place the tank in a container with some ice if necessary)
21 minutes developer at 18 ° C, with continuous stirring non-stop, at 32 RPM speed.
- Trust me ,,
After that process ,, you will be sure that all previous experiences were a waste of time and effort.
- I am waiting for you to tell me, thank you Monsieur Muhammad.

Is that this developer formula? https://www.digitaltruth.com/data/formula.php?FormulaID=5

Also are you talking about the Arista ortho litho film and do you have any results or pictures you can post?
 

mohmad khatab

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Is that this developer formula? https://www.digitaltruth.com/data/formula.php?FormulaID=5

Also are you talking about the Arista ortho litho film and do you have any results or pictures you can post?
Yes, that's the formula.
You must maintain the temperature no higher than 18 degrees.
Of course I have very good pictures developed with this great developer. But it is not available on this computer now.
Stirred should be 32 rpm for 20 continuous minutes
Go - do not be afraid - I will not mislead you.
You will thank me later.
 
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grainyvision

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If anyone has any connections at Freestyle Photo, I'm extremely interested in bulk ordering 2.4"x1000+ft Arista Ortho Litho film. Thus far I've had trouble getting a response from them... as in, no response at all.
 
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I've finally done it. Lets start with how awesome this looks:

No one else seems as interested in this stupid film as I am, but hopefully this helps some poor soul searching for how to not get terrible pictorial results with Ortho Litho style film in a few years.

I am that poor soul from the future -- thank you for posting this as I begin my journey into this film.
 

RyLaw

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I have a thread (or few) discussing my attempts to use Arista Ortho Litho for normal photography. I want to pretty much get that all into exactly one thread that directly discusses this insane film. Last thread was here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/pre-flash-post-flash-and-chemical-fogging-question.165843/

What is Arista Ortho Litho?

It's an insanely cheap red-blind (safelight compatible) lithographic film available in large to very large format. With naive processing, it is extremely high contrast, producing only black and white with no middle greys. There has been a lot of discussion on this forum and elsewhere for how to properly shoot and process this film to get pictorial results, and typically the tradeoff "triangle" is: Speed, Lowered Contrast, Density. ie, you can have speed and low contrast, but you'll get almost unprintably thin negatives. You can have normal contrast and good density, but will be using speeds of 0.3 ISO, etc.

I cut this film from huge 24" rolls into 120 sized strips as some sick exercise of a "fun" hobby, so everything I discuss here is typically related to processing in a tank like normal 120 film, and shooting in a camera rather than under an enlarger. This should be useful to people developing it in trays, and using enlargers too, but experiences might be a bit different. Anyway, so lets get into it. This is basically what I’ve experimented with and learned so far after ~50 120 rolls of Ortho Litho:

DEVELOPERS

Pyro PMK

Dilution 1+1+100 (A + B + water). Develop around 6m30s minutes, agitation every 30s. Non-acidic stop bath and fixer (general recommendation for pyro)
Speed: 0.8 ISO
Latitude: +8 stops to -1 stop

This was the first developer I used that held some promise of taming this film. The results are very low speed, but with great tonality and decent enough density. It is almost impossible to ruin a picture by over-exposure with this, making it especially fun for creative stuff like long exposures in daylight without an ND filter. Basically with more exposure contrast decreases. Eventually it turns blobby but it requires something like f/3.6, 30s in direct sun to really ruin it, and even then you can clearly see what’s in the image. Normally the negatives come out with an orange density. However, the actual gradient is related to exposure and goes (in order of more density) Orange, Olive, Blue/cool black. Film will have some visible grain, though it is a very smooth and attractive grain. Some base fogging is normal with this developer.

Over exposure latitude and better overall tonality can be obtained by reducing agitation, but this runs the risk of uneven development. Edge effects can be quite noticeable and sometimes unpleasant. Less agitation increases the edge effect and reduces contrast. Do NOT use stand development, it will result in extreme base fog and extreme edge effects (talking clear edges next to highlights you can measure between your fingers)


Ilford DD-X

Dilution 1+19, Develop 6m total, agitation every 1m.
Speed: 1.5 ISO
Latitude: +3 stops to -2 stops

This gives a true faster speed than PMK, but also overall increased contrast. In addition to this, DD-X has “split” contrast, where shadows will be fairly high contrast, yet highlights will rapidly have lower contrast.The negative produced will be full-range, with dark highlight detail and subtle shadow detail. This can make it difficult to print full shadow detail while retaining highlights. The actual image once scanned can be quite impressive, with practically invisible grain. Produces an orange tinted density with no base fogging. Relatively normal exposure latitude is present with this combo, though under exposed shadows will quickly turn from a visible grey to completely clear black.


D-23LC (custom developer)

Recipe:
1.5g metol
12g sodium sulfite
1L water
(optional: 1-2g of bromide can be added to decrease highlight density, though overall speed will be affected)
Can be mixed at room temperature; should keep for several days at least.

No dilution; develop using stand method. 35m total time, 30s-60s of initial agitation
Speed: 1.5-3 ISO
Latitude: +4 stops to -2 stops

This was a fairly successful adaption of the extremely simple D-23 developer formula. This produces an extremely full-range negative, even more so than DD-X. This also has better shadow detail than DD-X, bringing out subtle details through stand development into a printable image. However, the very dense highlights make it very difficult to print with both highlight detail and shadow detail. The overall density is comparable to that of E-6 slide film, and this developer and film would probably make ideal slides because of that property.

Negative will have slightly olive tinted density, and slightly better at both under and over exposure latitude than DD-X. Also has no base fog, and practically invisible grain. With this developer, 3 ISO is truly safe without risk of looking under exposed, though 1.5 ISO will give better shadow detail.


Dektol, Ilford Multigrade, etc paper devleopers [not recommended]

I tried a few different paper developers at various dilutions and each one resulted in extreme contrast and a very “coarse” appearance. Under magnification it was clear that what appeared to be “grey’ was just black dots with clear in between, and not a true grey appearance. I’m just going to say I don’t recommend this in a camera. I’ve heard some people have good experiences with this under enlargers though, and it also might work for pinhole cameras and other low contrast pictorial situations such as inter-positives.


HC-110 [not recommended]

Test diluted between 1+50 and 1+200 (syrup concentrate + water). Start time was around 6 minutes with agitation per minute. Speed is 0.8 ISO or slower. Results were very slow shadow speed, extremely thin density, and olive tinted negatives.


POTA (hand-mixed) [not recommended]

Recipe: phenidone 1.5g, sulfite 30g, 1L water – source: Darkroom Cookbook v3
Must be used immediately after mixing/cooling
No dilution, Develop 7-9 minutes. Agitation every 1m
Speed: 1.5-3 ISO (depending)


This is known to be a developer capable of “12 stops of exposure differentiation” and was designed for recording nuclear explosions on Kodak Tech Pan film. However, despite the similarities between Ortho Litho and Tech Pan, the developer doesn’t work here. It produces high to very high contrast images with extremely poor exposure latitude. It is near impossible to capture both highlight and shadow detail on the same exposure. Further, highlights do not just become dense, they become 100% black with no recoverable detail. Grain produced was extremely fine/invisible, and the density was of neutral tint.


Experiments

The real appeal of ortho litho is that it is fun to experiment with, even if frustrating at times. I’ve done a ton of stuff seeing what this film could handle and trying to increase it’s speed or lower it’s contrast and such. Most of these are just that, experiments. Don’t develop your wedding photos using this method


Sodium Dithionite / chemical flashing

Sodium dithionite is an unstable and.. tricky, chemical to use in a film development process. It will chemically expose film and in a basic environment will act as a fogging developer. It can be difficult to get ahold of, but is available in the US as the cleaning compound Iron Out. See this thread for my attempts at using it: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/pre-flash-post-flash-and-chemical-fogging-question.165843/

Basically the TL;DR; of my experiments there is that it has the potential for making Ortho Litho am amazing, normal contrast 20 ISO film, but it is almost impossible to properly control for run to run consistency. Even the pure version quickly decays upon exposure to moisture and air, and it is impossible to preserve in solution for more than 24 hours without losing some amount of strength.


TEA + Bromide pre-bath

Also in the thread about sodium dithionite I discover that TEA can be used for “latensification”, ie, to intensify the latent image of already shot film. This eliminates or at least reduces the need for pre-flashing and sodium dithionite, so I started to pursue this. TEA by itself is effective at this though it will increase base fog levels. However I accidentally discovered something more useful than just TEA. I’m unsure of the chemistry behind it, but by using both TEA and (a lot of) bromide in a pre-bath, the latent image will be intensified, AND the emulsion will react differently to developer despite extensive rinsing etc to ensure there is no bromide carry-over. The basic result of this is lower contrast, significantly improved shadow detail and speed, and reduced highlight density.

This bromide addition seems to have no effect on speed but will effectively reduce overall contrast of any developer used. In addition, with some developers (DD-X 1+19, D-23LC) it will produce an extremely warm tone negative. Because of the contrast lowering effect, it is possible to use high activity developers as well. DD-X 1+9 produces long-scale, but attractive images of fairly normal contrast. A danger with this process is that I can’t get it to work properly with tank development. It will result in the middle of the film being fogged and of (I think?) higher effective speed than the edges of the film. I’ve used it to some success in trays, but the film must be placed emulsion side UP or else the shape of the trays will leave fog marks. Still working on this process

As a reference for what seems close thus far:

TEA 20ml
Bromide 40g
Water 1L
Pre-bath for 5 minutes (make sure to rinse well before to remove AH layer, and then rinse well afterwards)

After prebath develop in DD-X 1+9 for 4 minutes with agitation at the 2m mark. Ideal speed with this is 6 ISO, but 12 ISO has all the detail (just a bit too thin to easily print or scan). DD-X 1+19 can be used with more development for good tintype-style positives at faster speeds also.


Tintype-style Positives

Some of these images can make really nice tintype style positives by putting black paint on either the emulsion or non-emulsion side (produces different looks, judge for yourself). With positives, you also effectively will gain around 1 stop in “perceived” speed and so can work great as a way to make use of under exposed negatives.

I’ve also used this film with very hot lith developer (very diluted like you would for lith printing) and used it to enlarge slides to make a negative, and then paint it black to make a positive. With this process, the same guidelines apply as they would to lith printing on paper (more exposure = less contrast, etc).The images produced by this process are especially unique. Lithing paper etc almost always goes green or orange. This film goes orange, similar to many papers. However, if you paint the orange negative black, it will surprisingly also invert the color, leaving you with a very cool bluish “positive”. These can look really cool, though unsure how you could actually display it on a wall or something. It really needs the proper angle of light for the best appearance.


Your own experiments

Ortho film is safe to handle and process under a safelight, so make use of that ability! When trying a new developer don’t just blindly guess, develop by inspection and remember that usually you need a bit more density than it looks like you need under safelights. Always rinse the anti-halation layer off as this can affect the activity of some chemicals. Use distilled water to eliminate variables, especially with dilute solutions.. etc.


I’ll continue posting to this thread and editing this top-level post as I do more experiments and figure out more fun stuff to do with this film. I estimate I still have around 200 rolls worth of 120 film in my closet, so the only real restriction with this is my free time. I’ll also post some pictures as examples of each developer and process later on too and link to those posts here

Hello, this is my first time posting here. Although I have been using the forums over the past few months as I built my darkroom. I am a college student that recently (June of this year) fell in love with film.

I had a question about this post. I have the grainy vision link for the ortho litho film book marked on my desktop and just mixed up some d-76 last night. I have tried with CineStill(that was as expected), then with A and B and finally with diluted Dektol. I never really got the results I wanted though.

Out of the developers you had listed D-76 was the only other one I had. But for some reason I cannot load the grainy vision page with the reference guide on it. I have tried on laptop, phone, and desktop.
I was hoping you might share with me on here, the dilution, time, iso, etc...

Thank you in advance for any help you may have to offer.

Ryan
 
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grainyvision

grainyvision

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Hello, this is my first time posting here. Although I have been using the forums over the past few months as I built my darkroom. I am a college student that recently (June of this year) fell in love with film.

I had a question about this post. I have the grainy vision link for the ortho litho film book marked on my desktop and just mixed up some d-76 last night. I have tried with CineStill(that was as expected), then with A and B and finally with diluted Dektol. I never really got the results I wanted though.

Out of the developers you had listed D-76 was the only other one I had. But for some reason I cannot load the grainy vision page with the reference guide on it. I have tried on laptop, phone, and desktop.
I was hoping you might share with me on here, the dilution, time, iso, etc...

Thank you in advance for any help you may have to offer.

Ryan

Hi, you caught a slight moment of embarrassment lol. I accidentally let my domain expire. My website should be back up now. Happy to answer any question though!
 

RyLaw

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Oh no!
I am sorry to have made it public
That was not my intention. I didn’t even think about it.
Ok great. I may have some questions as I tinker with it. So I will keep in touch. Thank you so much.
Ryan
HoneyHuckle Film
 

RyLaw

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I have been playing around with inter negatives and masks in d76 the last couple nights. I love this developer for that purposes. I haven’t learned to meter under my enlargers yet so I was just kind of eyeballing and it was faulty easy that way.
d76 1:1 at around 3 minutes for 3-6 second exposures, stopped all the way down.
I just shot my first in camera test for d76. Using a d6 cadet box camera I shot iso 12 and used 1:1. Pulled it out at 9 minutes and I think it was too short. It is drying now. Will let you know how it turns out later.
This film is fun and so versatile. As discussed, you can get so many results using different developers. D76 is fine grain and still good contrast. I used a and b on some and it turned out with dotted grain in the shadows. Very cool.
I am taking an exam today and just playing and posting during my little breaks. But hope to post some results later tonight:smile:
 

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Very interesting information Grainyvision. Thanks for posting your work.

I have been doing some work with Aristo Litho 2.0 using Caffenol as my developer. It is a very interesting film and I had hoped that Caffenol would help tame some of the contrast.

I am very, very early in this process having exposed and developed only a few 4x5 sheets. So far my simple Caffenol recipe seems to be working. As soon as I am able I will scan some of my results.
 
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CRITTENDON RESERVOIR - NORTHEASTERN CORNER OF NEVADA
Wanderlust Travelwide 4x5 Camera - Schneider Krueznach Angulon 90/6.8
Arista Ortho Litho 2.0 Film - Exposure Index ISO 1.5
Caffenol Developer (Brew of 4 Tablespoons of ground Sumatra beans in 4 cups water mixed with 5 level tablespoons of Sodium Carbonate. Add water/Ice to cool to 74F after mixing in the Sodium Carbonate and to make up to 1 liter of solution.)
4 minutes in 500ml Caffenol @ 74F. Agitate continuously in tray.
Negative scanned in two passes on Epson V500 and merged in Photoshop. No changes to scan beyond photomerge. (Will print later.)
Reservoir-2.jpg


COMMENTS - Negative shows evidence of staining from Caffenol. Some developing artifacts on left side of negative. Some vignetting on right side. Very overcast conditions. Good tones and good detail. Very minimal grain but this may be more evident when negative is actually enlarged and printed.

Am very interested in additional comments from others.
 

RyLaw

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Very nice results. Much nicer than my last one. I am having problems with fogging.

Would this be considered the caffenol reduced sodium recipe that you are using?
I want to try caffenol and have the ingredients on the shelf but I feel I have too many irons in the fire currently as it is.
 

revdoc

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I found that some coffees fog this film and some don't. You have to find one that works. Starbucks instant (made in Spain) definitely doesn't fog.

I generally rinse this film before developing. I started doing this to remove the anti-hal dyes to stop them staining up the developer, but these days I also treat it as a presoak. I don't get uneven development.
 

jimgalli

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I enjoyed reading your exploits even though the thread is not new and you may have moved on to other madnesses. I went on a nearly identical journey perhaps 25 years ago. Lucky Arista Ortho seems almost as constant as yellow box once was.

I was happy that I had written my final formula on the darkroom wall as memory is not what it used to be. Let me decipher;

The formula was for PyroCatHD solution A and B. 4.5A 10B : 1000, not 100 Easier to visualize than .45A 1B : 100
The restrainers I simply borrowed from my E6 formulas of a really bygone day! It made sense to fiddle with the same restrainers we used for E6 The Potassium Bromide is 2% solution. And the Potassium Iodide is .1% solution. Right; point one percent solution. It keeps literally forever. So for 1000ml I used 4ml of Pot Iod .1% solution drawn in a syringe, and 20ml of Pot Brom drawn in a syringe.

I always shot the stuff at ASA 3. And my developing times in a Jobo or tray was between 6 - 7 minutes. I got lovely pictorial tones that way. Alas, when the aerial recon. photography biz went to digital, I bought up a LOT of 9.5" long roll film. Panatomic X, Plus X in long rolls and abandoned the Arista for the lovely yellow box aerial recon film, which I'm still using. An 8X10 sheet from my stocks costs me perhaps .55 cents. I don't think I even have any Arista left in the freezer anymore. But it was tamed and purred like a little kitten . . . back in the day.

IMG_3082.jpg
IMG_3081.jpg
IMG_3080.jpg
 

Craig75

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Grainy bringing the heat - never thought it would be possible to get such results
 
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grainyvision

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Grainy bringing the heat - never thought it would be possible to get such results

I would love to do more experiments with the film, but I just don't have the patience to do the 120 film cutting. I've reached out to Arista and Freestyle to try to throw money at them to get the manufacturer to cut it down to 120 but I never get a reply. It's honestly a really underrated film. The absolute worst part of the film is how easy it scratches. As long as you're careful though, it's capable of results unlike any other film due to its unique very low contrast shadows and very high contrast highlights

Btw, if no one is aware (unsure I posted it on this thread), I have a blog post detailing my adventures with it with plenty of example pictures. See here: https://grainy.vision/blog/ortho-litho-reference
 

isaac7

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I wish @grainyvision would get their website back online. They appear to have left Photrio despite being listed as a subscriber. Would love to see all of the info.
 
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