ADOX C-TEC E-6 3-bath kit now listed at FotoImpex!

[ChrisGalway]

Hey folks, good news: the promised Adox re-formulation of the Tetenal 3-bath E6 kit is now listed (but not "in stock" yet) on the FotoImpex web site! Maybe we should run a little bet on when it will be "in stock"?

 

[Rudeofus]

If they do reformulate Tetenal's Colortec E-6, then I truly hope they reformulate the BLIX concentrates such that the fixer concentrate part lasts longer.

 

[ChrisGalway]

Hi Rudeofus,

Can you be a little more specific?

I used the Tetanal E6 kit for several years, in the 2.5litre kit form, to process 120 size Provia 100f films in a Paterson tank ... one by one (no doubling up). I would make up typically 550ml of working solutions (thus getting 4 lots per kit over several weeks) and typically process 5 120 films in each batch of working solution (sometimes 4, very occasionally 6) over a few (3-4) days. Each time I made up the working solutions, I would use Protectan (or similar) gas to help preserve the life of the stock solutions.

The Colortec E6 instructions said that the stock solutions would last 24 weeks (using Protectan) and I certainly would have kept mine almost that long (5 months?) to make the last batch of working solution and never noticed any obvious degradation from the resulting transparencies. 24 weeks seems pretty good to me, and since Adox seem to be offering only 1 litre kits, 24 weeks would surely be very good.

Of course, I've never run test strips or done any objective sensitometry/densitometry, but nothing stood out as problematic.

Am I missing something? (Quite possibly!).

 

[ChrisGalway]

P.S. Although I said "re-formulate" in the original post, that might be inaccurate and I have no evidence for suggest they are changing the Tetenal original. In fact I suspect that they are using the exact formula of Tetenal under some deal ... the same for their C-41 "Tetenal" kit.

 

[Rudeofus]

I used to buy their 5l kits and used them in 0.5l batches at a time over the course of a year. Knowing at least something about developers I carefully protected FD and CD concentrates with inert gas.

The fixer part of the BLIX concentrate, however, is essentially Ammonium Thiosulfate with a load of Acetic Acid, which together with the other BLIX concentrate part forms a BLIX @pH6.5. This acidic Ammonium Thiosulfate concentrate didn't last much longer than half a year, which is substandard IMHO.

In the meantime I have seen other concentrates, which split the BLIX into three parts: bleach, fixer and acid. A BLIX component really shouldn't be the first thing to go bad in an E-6 3-bath kit.

If Adox indeed reformulates Tetenal's Colortec E-6 kit, then my letter to Santa would also list a separation of thiosulfate and acid in the BLIX concentrates. Yeah, people will likely complain about yet another concentrate bottle to deal with, but to quote Adrian Monk: they may thank me later.

PS: A milky bottle of Tetenal BX2 concentrate is what got me into home brewing. The jury is still out there, whether this was a good thing after all.

 

[ChrisGalway]

I used to buy their 5l kits and used them in 0.5l batches at a time over the course of a year. Knowing at least something about developers I carefully protected FD and CD concentrates with inert gas.

The fixer part of the BLIX concentrate, however, is essentially Ammonium Thiosulfate with a load of Acetic Acid, which together with the other BLIX concentrate part forms a BLIX @pH6.5. This acidic Ammonium Thiosulfate concentrate didn't last much longer than half a year, which is substandard IMHO.

In the meantime I have seen other concentrates, which split the BLIX into three parts: bleach, fixer and acid. A BLIX component really shouldn't be the first thing to go bad in an E-6 3-bath kit.

If Adox indeed reformulates Tetenal's Colortec E-6 kit, then my letter to Santa would also list a separation of thiosulfate and acid in the BLIX concentrates. Yeah, people will likely complain about yet another concentrate bottle to deal with, but to quote Adrian Monk: they may thank me later.

PS: A milky bottle of Tetenal BX2 concentrate is what got me into home brewing. The jury is still out there, whether this was a good thing after all.

Thanks for explaining this. Yes, it would make sense to split the BLIX into 3 parts. At the moment, it seems Adox are only going to offer their E6 (and C-41) kit in a 1 litre size, which means issues of lifetime might be less important for some.

Of course a smaller pack means it's more expensive per film. I'm going to have to pay €60 for a 1 litre pack delivered (assuming I'm not ordering anything else at the time to share the mailing costs) ... it's the same for the one litre Bellini kit I'm using right now ... and at my typical 5 films per 500ml usage, that's €6 per film. Where I live, to get a single film E6 processed is around €20 including shipping both ways. But I do not process my own transparency films on cost grounds, I do it because I have more control and the great pleasure of seeing those beautiful colour positive gems when removing the film from the spiral at the end of the processing cycle! It's a hobby, after all.

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

We can confrim that the C-TEC E-6 is the next Tetenal revival product you will see. I would participate in the bet

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

If they do reformulate Tetenal's Colortec E-6, then I truly hope they reformulate the BLIX concentrates such that the fixer concentrate part lasts longer.

We are currently targeting low volume users. Our aim is to get people to use the wonderfull E-6 process at all. This is why we focus on "ease of process" over "juice out the last bit from your chems". There are several 6 bath kits out from other vendors which will give you a lower cost per film @ a higher upfront cost for the kit. Needless to mention that any possible limitation is only arising AFTER the mixing of the parts. So we think in a one Liter kit this can be neglected for now. Adding a 7th bottle has a substantual extra cost in manufacturing and calls for a bigger box plus fillers for two non existing bottles :-(

 

[koraks]

Thanks for explaining this @ADOX Fotoimpex I've always felt that manufacturers giving insight into why they choose to do things in a certain way, this tends to promote acceptance with end users.

 

[ant!]

We are currently targeting low volume users. Our aim is to get people to use the wonderfull E-6 process at all.

That would be me! I am slow shooter of just 5-10 rolls per year in total, black and white and color combined. C41 I have done at the local lab since it is only a tiny bit more then I would pay when doing it by myself using a kit, B&W I do at home. E6 is in the lab quite a bit more expensive, so the kit would make more sense for me. And I have still a handful slide films in the freezer (plus an Agfa Scala 200, where I am still not sure if it makes sense to use the Adox Scala kit or just use it as negative...).

 

[Rudeofus]

We are currently targeting low volume users. Our aim is to get people to use the wonderfull E-6 process at all. This is why we focus on "ease of process" over "juice out the last bit from your chems".

Thanks for your kind reply, but my post was specifically about E-6 3-bath kits. I was talking about one component (the "fixer" component) of the BLIX concentrate, which has less shelf life than FD concentrate:

Since Ammonium Ferric EDTA (aka BX1 concentrate) must be somewhat alkaline to prevent precipitation of the EDTA, you have two options for BLIX concentrates:

1. Use BX2 concentrate made from Ammonium Thiosulfate and Acetic Acid. This is what Tetenal and some other makers did, and resulting shelf life was poor (sulfurs out after a few months).
2. Use BX2 and BX3, where BX2 contains Ammonium Thiosulfate and Ammonium Sulfite, and BX3 contains all the acid you need to bring BLIX working solution pH to 6.5.

So if you want to cater to low volume amateur users, create kits which can be partially mixed over the course of 9-12 months. Current FD, CD-1, CD-2 and BX-1 concentrates will happily support this, and by choosing the (2) route the BX-2/BX-3 concentrates would last at least as well as the other concentrates.

 

[dmtnkl]

We are currently targeting low volume users.

I have been using Tetenal's kit for the last 4 years with wonderful results. Currently in my last batches and planning to switch to the full 6-bath process.

As a low volume user, i can tell you that 1L is not particularly attractive.

Management will remain a bit involved as i will still have to split up the chems in smaller air tight, filled to the rim bottles to preserve them. Furthermore, at this price level i can opt for the full 6 bath process.

A 500ml kit (6 films) would be ideal for low volume and something that no other manufacturer offers. Please consider this option.

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

I have been using Tetenal's kit for the last 4 years with wonderful results. Currently in my last batches and planning to switch to the full 6-bath process.

As a low volume user, i can tell you that 1L is not particularly attractive.

Management will remain a bit involved as i will still have to split up the chems in smaller air tight, filled to the rim bottles to preserve them. Furthermore, at this price level i can opt for the full 6 bath process.

A 500ml kit (6 films) would be ideal for low volume and something that no other manufacturer offers. Please consider this option.

You can do the same with our kit and refill to smaller bottles. Even if you spare this and just mix 500ml the remaining concentrates keep for about 12 weeks. It should actually not differ from a 6 bath kit. As long as conc´s are not mixed.

 

[dmtnkl]

You can do the same with our kit and refill to smaller bottles. Even if you spare this and just mix 500ml the remaining concentrates keep for about 12 weeks. It should actually not differ from a 6 bath kit. As long as conc´s are not mixed.

A kit of 1L corresponds to 12 rolls of 135.

Taking into account the average cost of E6 film as well as the kit itself, we are looking at over 300 euros. Given these numbers, the time and effort put into shooting and developing the rolls, as well as the value of the photos themselves, i am not going to spare any step. Moreover, i do not know anyone shooting that much E6 within 12 weeks, and as such, your understanding of a low volume shooter does not relate very well with how i perceive the term.

So given this complexity, i will prefer to go for the full 6 bath process.

If you offer a smaller kit at a competitive price, then i will have a very compelling reason to reconsider my approach.

 

[mshchem]

I split up the 5L Tetenal 3 bath kit into smaller bottles and used it over a 5 year period with excellent results. If Adox has duplicated this formula should be great. E6 is a rare bird these days. Not cheap

 

[ChrisGalway]

I bought the 2.5 litre Tetenal kit for many years, and would make up 500ml of working solution at a time to process typically 4-5 120 films (occasionally 6). According to the instructions (see attachment), the stock solutions would keep for 24 weeks, and I used Protectan/inert-gas and would occasionally keep them a bit longer ... although not the 5 years reported by mshchem!

When the Tetenal kit became unavailable, I used the Bellini 6-bath 1 litre kit, again making up 500ml of working solution at a time. As far as I could tell .... but obviously I could not do proper comparative tests ... the results with the Bellini kit did not seem any different to the 3-bath Tetenal. I wrote to Bellini about the storage time of the working and stock solutions and got the response:
"

• Stock solution (concentrate) in original bottle opened once and capped, with air squeezed out of bottle: 5 weeks.
• Working solution (mixed for use): 7 days.
• Unopened bottle of stock solution (concentrate): 1-1.5 years after purchase.

"
(They did not distinguish between the developer/bleach etc).

Both the Tetenal and Bellini kits were/are excellent as regards image quality. I once tried the Cinestill (Daylight Chrome) kit but it definitely gave different ("flatter") results and did not work so well for me.

In my opinion, the most important thing with E6 is getting the exposure "correct" for the first development time/temperature/agitation used. There may be small differences between the good 3- and 6-bath kits, but those differences are small in comparison to getting the exposure/development right.

I'm looking forward to the new Adox 1 litre kit! Bring it on! (In an ideal world, I'd like a 2.5 litre kit as well!)

 

[dmtnkl]

Our aim is to get people to use the wonderfull E-6 process at all. This is why we focus on "ease of process" over "juice out the last bit from your chems".

I think a 1L kit is not the right way to go about this.

From my experience, people will buy one or two kits when they will be starting out and while they are excited. Later down the line when they get more familiar with the process, they will want to get more efficient with it. This is when the frustration will hit as they will see their expensive chemistry spoil over time and not being able to make good use of it. This can happen for various reasons. Some people don't shoot that much anyway, others might go through periods when free time is scarce etc...

Tetenal already offered a small kit with the 250ml "magic box" kit, but that one was at the opposite extreme. It was too small and you couldn't easily do medium format with it as the quantity was not enough for inversion agitation. It was also expensive.

I believe that 500ml is the sweet spot.

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

I think a 1L kit is not the right way to go about this.

From my experience, people will buy one or two kits when they will be starting out and while they are excited. Later down the line when they get more familiar with the process, they will want to get more efficient with it. This is when the frustration will hit as they will see their expensive chemistry spoil over time and not being able to make good use of it. This can happen for various reasons. Some people don't shoot that much anyway, others might go through periods when free time is scarce etc...

Tetenal already offered a small kit with the 250ml "magic box" kit, but that one was at the opposite extreme. It was too small and you couldn't easily do medium format with it as the quantity was not enough for inversion agitation. It was also expensive.

I believe that 500ml is the sweet spot.

Thank you for your input. We will consider this.

 

[Angarian]

I believe that 500ml is the sweet spot.

That may be the "sweet spot" for very low volume CN film users.
For low to mid-volume users it will probably be the current 1L kit, using 1-2 kits per year.
And high(er) volume users will certainly prefer a 2.5L or even 5L kit.

Different users, different needs. And I think it will be also dependent on the regional / national market. User behaviour in photography differs often significantly from country to country, as I have experienced over all the years travelling around the world.

I am convinced that those companies who offer their customers not only excellent quality, but also options will have the most success in the market.

Apart from that:
Many thanks to Adox for reacting so fast to the Tetenal bankrupcy, and offering already now so many direct replacement products.

 

[ant!]

That may be the "sweet spot" for very low volume CN film users.
For low to mid-volume users it will probably be the current 1L kit, using 1-2 kits per year.
And high(er) volume users will certainly prefer a 2.5L or even 5L kit.

I think you might overestimating this, from your use. How many rolls makes 1l, 8 rolls? Shelf live officially once open 3 months? I wouldn't call this low volume anymore (from a user, not pro or lab perspective). Likely more then 90% of film shooters use.
I use both color and b&w, and in total maybe 4-8 rolls per year. B&w I do at home, c41 to the local lab, which is still reasonable priced. And I use more film then anyone I know. Of course, 15 years ago I came still back from vacation with 10 rolls in the backpack, but these days travel stuff is nearly the only thing I do digitally.
From my current use, I would be afraid the kit goes bad before I am at break even compared to the lab cost.

 

[Angarian]

I think you might overestimating this, from your use. How many rolls makes 1l, 8 rolls?

12-16 rolls.

Shelf live officially once open 3 months?

Yupp.

I wouldn't call this low volume anymore (from a user, not pro or lab perspective). Likely more then 90% of film shooters use.

Do you have reliable data to support your statement? Fotoimpex is the mother company of Adox. As the biggest film online shop in Europe they have the data of how much color negative film their customers buy p.a.
They have certainly looked at this data when they made the decision to start with this 1 litre kit.

I use both color and b&w, and in total maybe 4-8 rolls per year.

And there are lots of photographers out there who are mainly shooting color, and lots of especially younger ones are using color exclusively. Every serious film shop and lab will tell you that color film is the main used film type, BW is the niche.

I am not against an additional 500ml kit. But those who demand one must also face the economic reality that it will be more expensive per film compared to the 1L kit. And then there is the danger that the price difference to a professional lab could not not be big enough anymore.

All I have said is there are different user groups in the market, with different needs. And that it makes sense to look at these different needs.

 

[JParker]

I believe that 500ml is the sweet spot.

Interesting idea.

Despite the former Tetenal Magic Box we've seen offers from the chemistry manufacturers as 1L, 2.5L and 5L kits.
Looks like there has been sufficient demand for them, otherwise the producers would not have offered them.

My personal experience is that most color kit users are doing batch processing at home: They collect their exposed films, and when they have enough for a complete 1L kit for example, they process all at once, in one batch / run.

If 500ml is indeed the perfect volume, fitting the needs of the huge majority of curent users, then the 2.5L and 5L kits might fail in the market in the future.
We will see: If those higher volume kits are still offered in two years, then 500ml has probably not been the perfect size.

 

[ant!]

I pay locally for c41 $7.25 (Canadian dollar). The 1l kits I see start around $42 (assuming no shipping costs). This means 6 films until break even, everything above makes it cheaper. I guess 6 films in 3 months is doable for me when collecting before. To actually have a price advantage, I'd need to go quite a bit higher.
Of course for people who shoot more or rely on shipping to a lab, this calculation looks different.
Also, I understand that smaller then 1l kits might cost not crazy much less due to distribution and per pack costs... I just don't want to get half of the kit spoiled due to the shelf life.
So I guess for me, the lab is still the best choice, even though the price climbed quite a bit recently.
For e6, the calculation would be again different, the break even faster.

 

[ChrisGalway]

I pay locally for C41 $7.25 (Canadian dollar). The 1l kits I see start around $42 (assuming no shipping costs). This means 6 films until break even, everything above makes it cheaper. I guess 6 films in 3 months is doable for me when collecting before. To actually have a price advantage, I'd need to go quite a bit higher.
Of course for people who shoot more or rely on shipping to a lab, this calculation looks different.
Also, I understand that smaller then 1l kits might cost not crazy much less due to distribution and per pack costs... I just don't want to get half of the kit spoiled due to the shelf life.
So I guess for me, the lab is still the best choice, even though the price climbed quite a bit recently.
For e6, the calculation would be again different, the break even faster.

Yes, for E6 the break-even is a little faster. For me, I have to send off the film and my preferred lab charges €11.50 per roll for processing only, plus postage there and back (€8)

Personally speaking, I like home processing E6 for two reasons:

(i) As I process one-by-one films taken on each photo-holiday (6-8 rolls of 120) I can keep adjusting the first development time according to the notes I made on the rolls when sealing them, i.e. push by half, one or more stops as appropriate. I feel I have more control doing the processing myself, although admittedly exhaustion sets in by the last roll or two.

(ii) Nothing is more satisfying than taken the film off the spiral at the end and revealing those beautiful slides!

I note that FotoImpex are now saying end-September for the 1 litre E6 kit to be in stock. I can wait because I still have a Bellini kit to use up first.

 

[mshchem]

Need to keep it profitable for every part of the manufacturing and distribution process, otherwise it's done.

1 L kits sound like a great place to start. Maybe a small discount for buying multiple kits at one time?

Need to keep it simple.