You re-stated the obvious that film speed and EI are different things, and then came to the wrong conclusion. When I'm asking if one is getting full film speed, that's precisely what I am asking. I am not asking them how they usually expose it. Personal exposure preferences should be out of scope. EI does not apply here. Dragging it into a conversation instantly makes it pointless.That is why, if you are asking a question about what "speed" people are getting from a film, it is useful to both determine how they are evaluating that speed and, if they are actually sharing the Exposure Index that they use, what sort of negatives they prefer.
You re-stated the obvious that film speed and EI are different things, and then came to the wrong conclusion. When I'm asking if one is getting full film speed, that's precisely what I am asking. I am not asking them how they usually expose it. Personal exposure preferences should be out of scope. EI does not apply here. Dragging it into a conversation instantly makes it pointless.
Film speed is ISO speed. The purpose of it to have no other. Everything else is just someone's favorite exposure index, including the ZS shenanigans. People say things like "I'm getting full box speed of film X in developer Y" all the time. And everyone understands what they mean.
Your advice above invites people to derail future film speed conversations with an irrelevant tangent.
You re-stated the obvious that film speed and EI are different things, and then came to the wrong conclusion. When I'm asking if one is getting full film speed, that's precisely what I am asking. I am not asking them how they usually expose it. Personal exposure preferences should be out of scope. EI does not apply here. Dragging it into a conversation instantly makes it pointless.
Film speed is ISO speed. The purpose of it to have no other. Everything else is just someone's favorite exposure index, including the ZS shenanigans. People say things like "I'm getting full box speed of film X in developer Y" all the time. And everyone understands what they mean.
Your advice above invites people to derail future film speed conversations with an irrelevant tangent.
The difference is not obvious to me. I thought the question was, What EI do you use with Acros? Apparently my ignorance is so profound, I should have never posted my first reply (#4), and I would delete it if that were possible.I also believe people's understanding of the difference between film speed and exposure is not as obvious as you think.
The difference is not obvious to me. I thought the question was, What EI do you use with Acros? Apparently my ignorance is so profound, I should have never posted my first reply (#4), and I would delete it if that were possible.
Forgive me, but this makes no sense to me. "ISO Speed" is a laboratory standard. It is intended to bring consistency of measurement across different manufacturers and films. Assuming the manufacturer has done their job properly is IS the laboratory standard speed of the film. That means that everyone gets an ISO of 100 with Acros II.
A “pedantic rabbit hole”? On the Internet? Never!
There was no need to bring exposure into the conversation, as Matt was suggesting.
Exactly. This is exactly what I was asking, because not all manufacturers adhere to the ISO standard. Foma 400 never reaches its stated ISO speed even in Microphen, for example. And that is what I was asking: whether Acros offers honest ISO 100 or not, and in what developers.
There was no need to bring exposure into the conversation, as Matt was suggesting. Photrio loves going on tangents in threads, which can be fun at times, but it's not always helpful.
@chuckroast Interesting... so you think there's a way to get Fomapan 400 to show true ISO 400 performance with semi-stand development?
I guess you and @MattKing are both correct at pointing out that my language should have been more precise. Next time I'll do better, although I did try to distance it from exposure, knowing Photrio's habits of force-lecturing people on tangentially related topics... From now on my questions here will be written as legal contracts, 2+ pages no less!
@chuckroast Interesting... so you think there's a way to get Fomapan 400 to show true ISO 400 performance with semi-stand development?
I guess you and @MattKing are both correct at pointing out that my language should have been more precise. Next time I'll do better, although I did try to distance it from exposure, knowing Photrio's habits of force-lecturing people on tangentially related topics... From now on my questions here will be written as legal contracts, 2+ pages no less!
@MattKing But I want to use it more. I have a soft spot for their spectral response (ghost-faced portraits) but never liked their limited range / high contrast and crushed shadows when I expose them at box speed and develop according to datasheets.
That is an incredible mischaracterization of the ISO standard. What made Jones' testing unique is that for the first time instead of basing a method on what was assumed important from a sensitometric perspective, Jones began with the end result of the photographic process and worked backward. From L.A. Jones and C.N Nelson's A Study of Various Sensitometric Criteria of Negative Film Speeds, "These series of prints were judged by 200 observers, each observer being requested to choose the first excellent print in each series. In this way, a statistical psychophysical evaluation of the effective camera speeds was obtained. It was recognized, of course, that such a method is much too complicated and laborious to permit of its application in practice and that for such a purpose, it is desirable or, in fact, imperative to find a sensitometric method to which will yield results in close agreement with those obtained by the direct psychophysical method." The results from various sensitometric methods were compared to the judged prints or to the print speeds and their correlation graphed. This is from the testing done in the 50s which lead to the 1960 standard and the use of the Delta-X Criterion, which is a short hand version of the fractional gradient method, as the speed method."ISO Speed" is a laboratory standard. It is intended to bring consistency of measurement across different manufacturers and films. Assuming the manufacturer has done their job properly is IS the laboratory standard speed of the film. That means that everyone gets an ISO of 100 with Acros II. But this is only obliquely related to what any given individual will actually realize in practical use.
I have yet to see any film hit full ISO speed in practice when using conventional development
It also would help to know what developer Foma chose and what developing regime they followed in conducting their ISO testing.
I looked at the Foma 400 data sheet (https://www.foma.cz/en/fomapan-400) and it doesn't say what developer, time, or temperature they used.
It does. Page two: they show curves for D76, Microphen, Fomadon, Xtol, and LQN with temperature and times. They even describe their agitation method. Microphen and LQN get to about ISO 320, others are around 250. So that's clearly not an ISO 400 film.
That's what I always thought.Maybe they just rounded up out of optimism?
Hope you don't mind, but I played a little with your image and it appears shadow detail isn't all that bad. The image just appears to have been printed heavy. The negative should have even more and would be a better way to evaluate the exposure.
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That is an incredible mischaracterization of the ISO standard. What made Jones' testing unique is that for the first time instead of basing a method on what was assumed important from a sensitometric perspective, Jones began with the end result of the photographic process and worked backward. From L.A. Jones and C.N Nelson's A Study of Various Sensitometric Criteria of Negative Film Speeds, "These series of prints were judged by 200 observers, each observer being requested to choose the first excellent print in each series. In this way, a statistical psychophysical evaluation of the effective camera speeds was obtained. It was recognized, of course, that such a method is much too complicated and laborious to permit of its application in practice and that for such a purpose, it is desirable or, in fact, imperative to find a sensitometric method to which will yield results in close agreement with those obtained by the direct psychophysical method." The results from various sensitometric methods were compared to the judged prints or to the print speeds and their correlation graphed. This is from the testing done in the 50s which lead to the 1960 standard and the use of the Delta-X Criterion, which is a short hand version of the fractional gradient method, as the speed method.
The "laboratory" aspect is to control the desired variables and limit the undesirable variables. Instead of laboratory, why not use scientific?
View attachment 347135[
That is quite a declarative statement. Where is the proof? What method did you use to compare to the ISO speeds and what is the level of confidence of its accuracy?
You refer to the Zone System a number of times so I am going to use its testing method as an example. Zone System speed point is four stops down from the metered exposure. The EI is determined when the exposure falls at 0.10 about Fb+f.
The metered exposure for a given speed setting, creates an exposure of 8/EI at the film plane. The black and white speed point of 0.8/EI or 0.8/Hm falls 10X to the left, or Δ1.0 log-H. Four stops is equal to Δ1.20 log-H. That means, testing the same film will result in film speeds 2/3 of a stop different between the two methodologies.
Many Zone System users recommend rating the film at ½ the ISO speed. The third of a stop discrepancy from the 2/3 stop can easily be attributed to inaccuracies in testing or simply rounding. When adjusting for the difference in methodologies, any Zone System test resulting in speeds ½ to 1 stop below the ISO speed actually indicates the film is achieving ISO speeds.
That’s why it’s important to state the testing method or more precisely the interpretation method. With ISO speeds, simply using ISO before the speed indicates the standards were followed.
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