A "sharp" developer to use with rotary processing

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StoneNYC

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No!

"Sharpness" is mainly a subjective measurement, not an objective one. It is better to refer to it as "perceived sharpness".

The factors that affect sharpness are, in order of weight:

1) accutance (referred to sometimes as edge contrast);
2) micro-contrast;
3) macro-contrast; and
4) resolution.

If you increase the resolution, it often decreases the perceived sharpness, because it often makes the transitions between adjacent details more smooth.

The artificial sharpness that comes from a lot of digital post-processing emphasizes and clarifies those transitions - often at the expense of the actual detail at those transitions.

The developers of the re-sizing algorithms that permit people to print 16x24, 300 dpi prints from 12 megapixel files have definitely figured this out.

I don't ever resize the DPI on my scans or my digital images (no interpolation) when exporting.

That said, at 300dpi a 1.5mp (or thereabouts) image can do 8x10.

16x24 is only 2.5 times more in size (yes surface area cumulates) but 12mp can print fairly big.

I admit to owning a 21mp camera, the 20x24 prints are spectacularly detailed. I just prefer film as a taking medium. But still want my 20x24 prints to be just as detailed nose to paper.

Shot some random stuff in the snow with my friend yesterday but it was on tech pan 35mm panoramic so I'll only be able to blow it up to a tiny 10x30 print :wink:
 

MattKing

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I don't ever resize the DPI on my scans or my digital images (no interpolation) when exporting.

That said, at 300dpi a 1.5mp (or thereabouts) image can do 8x10.

16x24 is only 2.5 times more in size (yes surface area cumulates) but 12mp can print fairly big.

I admit to owning a 21mp camera, the 20x24 prints are spectacularly detailed. I just prefer film as a taking medium. But still want my 20x24 prints to be just as detailed nose to paper.

Shot some random stuff in the snow with my friend yesterday but it was on tech pan 35mm panoramic so I'll only be able to blow it up to a tiny 10x30 print :wink:

See my PM - an 8 x 10 requires 2400 x 3000 "dots" if you are using a printer that prints in dots. That's 7.2 "Megadots". And if you don't want interpolation, that requires 7.2 Mega.....

It's actually more complex than that, due to how colours are put together in systems like that.

Just one of the problems with using digitally based criteria to evaluate film processes.
 
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StoneNYC

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See my PM - an 8 x 10 requires 2400 x 3000 "dots" if you are using a printer that prints in dots. That's 7.2 "Megadots". And if you don't want interpolation, that requires 7.2 Mega.....

It's actually more complex than that, due to how colours are put together in systems like that.

Just one of the problems with using digitally based criteria to evaluate film processes.

I just zoom 1:1 on my screen for evaluation. I don't inkjet print, when I'm ready I send the file to the printer and they Light-Jet print, no dots in the end, just chemistry :smile: haha
 
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StoneNYC

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Anyway we are off track, as I said in my PM, looking at the edge of the dot, not the tightness of the dot in relation to the next, :smile:
 

MattKing

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I just zoom 1:1 on my screen for evaluation. I don't inkjet print, when I'm ready I send the file to the printer and they Light-Jet print, no dots in the end, just chemistry :smile: haha

Lambdas print using dots too!
 

CatLABS

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But with more detail comes more perceived sharpness, no?

The print is the important part, so keeping sharpness all the way to the print is important. And more details would look sharper than blobs, no?

No. there is nothing between the lines of what i wrote.

Once i had a student who printed a mural print about 30X45 inches. Folks used to pass by it and ask what format it was and were amazed at the level of detail. It was a 35mm negative, of some not important type of film, and standard sprint or other generic developer. It was shot with a canon 50mm lens on some not important model.

The lesson here is that the format has nothing to do with sharpness, or detail. A blurry 4X5 negative will be blurry compared to a not blurry 35mm negative.
Its much easier to have not blurry negatives, the smaller the format. The camera is smaller and lighter thus less prone to shake, the lenses are shorter, thus depth of field is larger, which in turn gives you more aperture to work with for the same level of depth of field, thus the shutter speed is shorter, which helps making not blurry images.

So - as i said above - the larger the format - the harder it is to make sharp images.
I do not know what "perceived sharpness" means.

Size has little or nothing to do with sharpness either, just go back and read the many, many threads here and on LFPF about "allowed circles of confusion" (or you can read it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_confusion). In short - the larger the print, the further away you have to stand to understand what you are looking at. While its "cool" to be able to stick your face into a large print, and see that is is sharp, it does not really mean anything, and not hard to do, just use a smaller negative, that is unless you really need to use some camera movments (in which case you can use an MF camera with movements or shoot roll film in a back).

When you go and look at real big prints in museums, like kandida hoffer, or gursky, or jeff wall, or avedon, they are not really sharp, even when you are 2 meters away, and thats because its super hard to have such larger negatives that are sharp. At zero enlargement they are pretty cool to look at. Which is why i guess it was suggested that if you want a 20X24 print to look like a 4X5 contact print looks like, you need to contact a 20X24 negative.
 

markbarendt

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So - as i said above - the larger the format - the harder it is to make sharp images.
When you go and look at real big prints in museums, like kandida hoffer, or gursky, or jeff wall, or avedon, they are not really sharp, even when you are 2 meters away, and thats because its super hard to have such larger negatives that are sharp. At zero enlargement they are pretty cool to look at. Which is why i guess it was suggested that if you want a 20X24 print to look like a 4X5 contact print looks like, you need to contact a 20X24 negative.

I agree that shooting large format is tougher to get right, but it isn't over the top tough to get sharp shots. Surprisingly my keeper rate is higher for LF than for small, except where I'm testing my limits doing things like chasing my grand-daughter for an action shot.

I agree that contact prints are special in general, compared to enlargements. But, when one does get LF right it is quite special. Each time I see Karsh's Portrait of O'Keefe in Santa Fe I am amazed. http://www.karsh.org/#/the_work/portraits/georgia_o_keeffe

I have also seen very large prints from 35mm that are quite nice. But when I compare my enlarged 4x5 shots to my enlarged 35mm shots of the same scene, same size paper, the difference in look, detail, and tone is pretty stark.
 

CatLABS

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I agree that shooting large format is tougher to get right, but it isn't over the top tough to get sharp shots. Surprisingly my keeper rate is higher for LF than for small, except where I'm testing my limits doing things like chasing my grand-daughter for an action shot.

I agree that contact prints are special in general, compared to enlargements. But, when one does get LF right it is quite special. Each time I see Karsh's Portrait of O'Keefe in Santa Fe I am amazed. http://www.karsh.org/#/the_work/portraits/georgia_o_keeffe

I have also seen very large prints from 35mm that are quite nice. But when I compare my enlarged 4x5 shots to my enlarged 35mm shots of the same scene, same size paper, the difference in look, detail, and tone is pretty stark.

All that does not negate what i wrote about the correlation between format size and image sharpness.
The fact that LF images look different, and that is true, does not necasseriy make them sharper, and as others have said and will porbably say, the same tonal rage can be achieved in any format. The level of detail can also be achieved in pretty much any format, its just a question of resolving power (hence resolution), you know, microfische etc...
 

Sirius Glass

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... Surprisingly my keeper rate is higher for LF than for small, except where I'm testing my limits doing things like chasing my grand-daughter for an action shot.

The higher keeper rate is probably a result of the higher cost of failure in LF. Therefore one is much more careful when taking LF. Besides with the exception for sports and wildlife photography the time spend making one photograph is generally longer than in MF or 35mm photography. Have you ever seen an LF photographer spray photographs the way digi-snappers do?
 

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The higher keeper rate is probably a result of the higher cost of failure in LF. Therefore one is much more careful when taking LF. Besides with the exception for sports and wildlife photography the time spend making one photograph is generally longer than in MF or 35mm photography. Have you ever seen an LF photographer spray photographs the way digi-snappers do?


i have been shooting LF since about 1988ish
and i don't take any longer to expose LF than i do smaller formats
if it took me large quantities of time to use a LF camera (aside from setting it up on a tripod)
i wouldn't bother ... im not really sure what the point is in taking 1hour to make an exposure ..
but to each his own i suppose, if someone is using a LF camera as a form of relaxation i guess there is a point ..
but i have plenty of other things to do besides wandering aimlessly "relaxing" with a camera taking endless spot meter readings.
that sort of thing always seemed like an exercise in futility ...
 

Sirius Glass

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I am talking about seconds to minutes, not hours.
 

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I am talking about seconds to minutes, not hours.

thats good, cause there are plenty of folks that take all day to expose 1 sheet of film :wink:
i'd probably take up a different vocation if that was the case for me ...
i can just see a client now, "its going to take 2 weeks to take those 10 photographs?!"
( ... next )
 
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StoneNYC

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I sometimes take a few months to expose a sheet. But I think what's most important is Stone's threads always make it to double digit page counts in record time. I don't know how he does it.

Maybe I ask poignant questions ...

Or people are waiting for drama like watching jerry springer (which I don't do BTW). Hah!

Also, I take an hour to take some images. I'm very happy with them and they are well worth the time. All of these took about an hour to "scout", setup, meter, and expose. All but one were taken with my 4x5...

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1391999470.455918.jpgImageUploadedByTapatalk1391999502.908643.jpgImageUploadedByTapatalk1391999541.311595.jpgImageUploadedByTapatalk1391999554.711230.jpgImageUploadedByTapatalk1391999596.049666.jpg
 

Richard Man

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You guys are arguing the wrong things. Of course 4x5 have boatload of advantages (and disadvantages) comparing to smaller formats. But what Stone wants is a magic formula will his specific limitations that will elevate his 4x5 to the and exceeding the levels of Mamiya 7 in SHARPNESS. For all we know, may be his ground glass is dirty, his loupe broken, his film holders bent, but that's not what he's asking about.
 

Regular Rod

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Maybe I ask poignant questions ...

Or people are waiting for drama like watching jerry springer (which I don't do BTW). Hah!

Also, I take an hour to take some images. I'm very happy with them and they are well worth the time. All of these took about an hour to "scout", setup, meter, and expose. All but one were taken with my 4x5...

View attachment 81847View attachment 81848View attachment 81849View attachment 81850View attachment 81851

You could open up your options and get something that is likely to meet your requirements if you would consider making up stock solutions from powders but you wrote "no powders".

OBSIDIAN AQUA will get you the results that you need but you make it yourself with the raw chemicals and distilled water. It uses Catechol instead of Pyrogallol as the reducing agent. In use it is one-shot.

This is not 4x5. It's nominally 6x12 on 120 in my HolgAgon but it might encourage you to give OBSIDIAN AQUA a try. http://www.flickr.com/photos/regular_rod/11344703254/


RR
 
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StoneNYC

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You could open up your options and get something that is likely to meet your requirements if you would consider making up stock solutions from powders but you wrote "no powders".

OBSIDIAN AQUA will get you the results that you need but you make it yourself with the raw chemicals and distilled water. It uses Catechol instead of Pyrogallol as the reducing agent. In use it is one-shot.

This is not 4x5. It's nominally 6x12 on 120 in my HolgAgon but it might encourage you to give OBSIDIAN AQUA a try. http://www.flickr.com/photos/regular_rod/11344703254/


RR

Thanks, PYROcatechol is still a pyro... :smile:

And yea no powders, I actually wasn't aware that HC-110 also has Catechol in it (I think someone said that above) I might try Ilfotec HC if DD-X doesn't work out for economy reasons.

Have to actually shoot something on films I use regularly to test, right now I've only been shooting some odd leftover films to get rid of them. It's been cold and I haven't felt well to go shooting, I hate shooting "test" shots I would rather just shoot good images even on test development.

So I have a model shoot lined up so I'll test with that, though may not be able to show many of those images :tongue:
 

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i guess you'll never try it then because i have no need to try something new, find magic bullets
re-tool my system besides, i'm doing my best to use as much NON TOXIC chemistry as i can use.
and caffenol is about as non toxic as it gets ... i can't speak for RO-9 and the others on your list but i am sure it is nasty
( and im not talking about the color chems that you have said you use ) .. and using them in the kitchen at the sink YIKES!

i figured i would post 3 links since it is probably as good as if not better than hc110 and ilfotec, pyro, and anything else you throw at it
download the figital revolution ( steve schaub in vermont ) used caffenol extensively for film he digitized and got images sharp as nails ..

its like a snipe hunt! ...
 
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Regular Rod

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I've always discounted it completely lol.

Someday my friend... When all the companies fold and I'm making my own film emulsion, then I'll use household items :smile:

Tell you what, I'll try cafenol when you try Rodinal :wink:

It's a pity that you have closed your mind to Caffenol. It is pretty good. Not quite at OBSIDIAN AQUA levels for sharpness or 510-PYRO for tones, but if avoiding poisonous chemicals is important to you there is nothing better. It's a fine compensating developer too.

RR
 
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StoneNYC

StoneNYC

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I still think you could give Ilfasol 3 another try. Perhaps you underexposed the first try.

I'm the first person to say that Ilfsol3 is under utilized, it's a wonderful developer for inversion I got great results.
 
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