A "sharp" developer to use with rotary processing

[Roger Cole]

Stone, why do you put such artificial restrictions on yourself? XTOL sounds like a great choice for what you are doing. It's not expensive, it's more or less environmentally friendly, relatively non-toxic, and it has a great reputation for exactly what you are asking about! If you are afraid of mixing powders buy a good organic vapor respirator ( they don't cost very much, really! ) and do it outside. Then you'll have 5 liters! You'll only have to mix up powders once every 6 months!

Edit: I get the thing about pyro... it's pretty toxic and you need to figure out about disposal. I stay away from a few things too like dichromates. But insisting on liquid chems does limit things!

This. Nothing wrong with powders, just a little more trouble but if it's worth it, I'd stir. Nothing wrong with pyro either if it suits your needs - just take reasonable precautions.

I use T-Max RS in my Jobo, or D76 1+1. Neither are anything special, and I'm fine with that. Both work well. Neither are edge enhancing special "sharpness developers" but both are plenty sharp enough for me.

 

[Roger Cole]

That makes sense (about rotary times not being as difficult, still I don't like to be so short as 4 minutes when pouring bough for 6-7 rolls of film takes an extra 20 seconds, and then another 10 seconds to get the lid on and move the tank to the rotary part.

If I had a JOBO and lift... I would not care one bit about short times.

If my tax return is large enough I may just get a CPP2 with lift... That will be 3 months away though... And hopefully a new place to live.



True

Ah - well yeah, I agree with short times not being a problem, BUT I'm using a Lift. I can see keeping them a bit longer for a manual "put the lid on the tank then put the tank on the machine" system.

 

[StoneNYC]

Now if only HC-110( we're still cheap and came as a $13 bottle, instead of the new $35-$40 bottles....

 

[cjbecker]

I haven't looked up prices in a while and that is just crazy. Given it does last a while using it one shot. But wow.

 

[NedL]

Well, to give you an idea.....

Sorry Stone, I didn't realize it was from things like that beyond your control. Wasn't trying to embarrass you. HC-110 doesn't take up much space .

 

[garysamson]

Hi Stone,
I don't understand why you don't just stay with Rodinal and intermittent agitation if you are happy with the resulting tonality, sharpness and grain.

 

[MattKing]

HC-110 gets "sharper" as you dilute more - not by much, but it does.

I like and use the 1+49 dilution that Jason Brunner documents in this article: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I use it in a replenishment regime though.

HC-110 may involve a slight speed loss - about the same as Rodinal.

One caution though - make sure you use at least 250 ml (Kodak says 300 ml) of working strength solution per 120/135-36 roll or 8x10 sheet.

 

[MattKing]

I just checked HC-110 on B&H's site and was interested/surprised to see:

1) it is priced at about $29.00 USD;
2) it appears to be in a 1 litre bottle of the old style, labelled as being made in the USA (not the Tetenal style bottle from Germany)!
3) it is only available for purchase in store - not online.

Here is the link: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/926496-REG/kodak_5010541_hc_110_professional_developer.html

 

[MattKing]

I haven't looked up prices in a while and that is just crazy. Given it does last a while using it one shot. But wow.

The bottles are now 1 litre - more than twice the size of the old version.

 

[StoneNYC]

Hi Stone,
I don't understand why you don't just stay with Rodinal and intermittent agitation if you are happy with the resulting tonality, sharpness and grain.

Because the MOD54 holder I had was destroyed as I mentioned earlier and now I have a 2509n JOBO reel so in order to cover that reel I would be using over 1L of chemistry vs 560ml with the rotary process, AND I need to get used to rotary so I can become more consistent and efficient and to do color processing more accurately. Etc... I'm evolving... Soon I may be shooting 8x10's which I can't do in my Paterson tanks anyway, so I would rather get it down on "cheaper" "tiny" sheets of 4x5 than do testing with expensive larger sheets.

HC-110 gets "sharper" as you dilute more - not by much, but it does.

I like and use the 1+49 dilution that Jason Brunner documents in this article: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I use it in a replenishment regime though.

HC-110 may involve a slight speed loss - about the same as Rodinal.

One caution though - make sure you use at least 250 ml (Kodak says 300 ml) of working strength solution per 120/135-36 roll or 8x10 sheet.

Thanks! I was looking for that link, I had read it a while back but at the time was experiment with my own dilution (S) hah! Then decided I liked Rodinal better at the time.

Things change. Thanks.

 

[StoneNYC]

I just checked HC-110 on B&H's site and was interested/surprised to see:

1) it is priced at about $29.00 USD;
2) it appears to be in a 1 litre bottle of the old style, labelled as being made in the USA (not the Tetenal style bottle from Germany)!
3) it is only available for purchase in store - not online.

Here is the link: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/926496-REG/kodak_5010541_hc_110_professional_developer.html

Oh yeah, that's the other thing, I don't actually live in New York Unlike my name might suggest, so I can't just walk down to that store, I'll have to check and see maybe freestyle will ship it

 

[Xmas]

HiStone
Less is more
Rodinal 1:100 20C stand for 30-60 minutes sharpness is leaving it alone…
Pour in Rodinal invert once if you are fussy set kitchen timer surf the web
Don't bang tanks they can crack leave that to Alex with long 75mm in her T34 or Anna in her flying coffin
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Yegorova
given this is a pub shot she looks stern
Although the Rodinal is painkiller and drain cleaner allways wear gloves. One of my chums has Parkinson's when he got confirmed he filled in a questionside one was have you handled photo chemicals... he had, needs to use SLR with AV now.
Try contact printing the 4x5, Rodinal will work if you have nothing else.

 

[markbarendt]

Oh yeah, that's the other thing, I don't actually live in New York Unlike my name might suggest, so I can't just walk down to that store, I'll have to check and see maybe freestyle will ship it

http://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-hc-110-dev-tm-2-gal/

 

[BMbikerider]

By using the word 'sharp' do you mean a high accutance developer? One that gives an edge effect like the unsharp mask in Photoshop?

The very reason that developers like Rodinal or the home brew of Beutler developer is due to the high dilution used and the minimum agitation applied. (typically 30 secs at the start, then one inversion every 30 seconds) This allows the edge effect to take place between tones of differing densities, where the developer working on denser parts is exhausted first so creating the edge effect. By using it in a rotary processor with constant agitation, this effect is not going to happen - or if it does it will be very, very much reduced.

 

[philbed]

Stone, it's a bit difficult to answer your problem. But I've you try DDX with dilution 1:9 I think you could reach your target. Good film speed, nice grain, very good sharpess. You just have to test your film to find the IE and developing time.

 

[Rudeofus]

Most high acutance developers, including dilute HC-110, will not give you the sharpness you look for. The high agitation regime you are forced to accept with your rotary processor works against their working principle: local exhaustion. For the same reason you won't have much luck with two bath developers,. There is, however, another class of developers that are known for high sharpness: Ascorbic Acid based developers.

Xtol, the most popular commercial PC developer, comes as powder, so it's off your list. If you think you could mix yourself a batch of PC-TEA or PC-Glycol during one long dark night, or have some co-conspirator nearby mix it for you, you should be set for a long time with a liquid, not overly toxic and non-replenished developer that should give you the sharpness you look for.

 

[jerrybro]

I've used TMaxRS in the Jobo at high dilutions and been satisfied with it. With liquids, even mixed stock dilutions, I found myself not using it fast enough and always tossing some of it away or seeing difference between old and fresh mixes.

BTW, B&H is only an hour away and is open on Sundays, if you haven't seen the store, or Adorama for that matter, it is worth the trip. Take you beloved to the city for lunch, and while you're there....

 

[pentaxuser]

I'm not allowed to be outside with my respirator and gloves because "I might scare the neighbors" etc .

Always better to scare the neighbours. I used to mix powders without any precautions and now my son threatens his kids by saying he'll arrange a visit from Grandad. Don't get me wrong, I am perfectly healthy its just a shame about the face

On a more practical note some users simply tap the bottom of the tank against the palm of their hands so no noise and it seems to work.

pentaxuser

 

[StoneNYC]

HiStone
Less is more
Rodinal 1:100 20C stand for 30-60 minutes sharpness is leaving it alone…
Pour in Rodinal invert once if you are fussy set kitchen timer surf the web
Don't bang tanks they can crack leave that to Alex with long 75mm in her T34 or Anna in her flying coffin
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Yegorova
given this is a pub shot she looks stern
Although the Rodinal is painkiller and drain cleaner allways wear gloves. One of my chums has Parkinson's when he got confirmed he filled in a questionside one was have you handled photo chemicals... he had, needs to use SLR with AV now.
Try contact printing the 4x5, Rodinal will work if you have nothing else.

I only stand for x-processing or in an emergency. Grain is too high.

By using the word 'sharp' do you mean a high accutance developer? One that gives an edge effect like the unsharp mask in Photoshop?

The very reason that developers like Rodinal or the home brew of Beutler developer is due to the high dilution used and the minimum agitation applied. (typically 30 secs at the start, then one inversion every 30 seconds) This allows the edge effect to take place between tones of differing densities, where the developer working on denser parts is exhausted first so creating the edge effect. By using it in a rotary processor with constant agitation, this effect is not going to happen - or if it does it will be very, very much reduced.

Yes you understand.

Hmmm thanks, good info.

Stone, it's a bit difficult to answer your problem. But I've you try DDX with dilution 1:9 I think you could reach your target. Good film speed, nice grain, very good sharpess. You just have to test your film to find the IE and developing time.

I'll try it 1:14 maybe the higher dilution will make up for the price of it and I can use the lower dilution for pushing...

I've used TMaxRS in the Jobo at high dilutions and been satisfied with it. With liquids, even mixed stock dilutions, I found myself not using it fast enough and always tossing some of it away or seeing difference between old and fresh mixes.

BTW, B&H is only an hour away and is open on Sundays, if you haven't seen the store, or Adorama for that matter, it is worth the trip. Take you beloved to the city for lunch, and while you're there....

I've been to B&H but getting there is a pain, takes all day to take the train or drive and then parking etc, it's just not worth driving in just for that. So I try to go when I'm in NY working, but it's hard and you have to spend $100 for parking for "free"

Always better to scare the neighbours. I used to mix powders without any precautions and now my son threatens his kids by saying he'll arrange a visit from Grandad. Don't get me wrong, I am perfectly healthy its just a shame about the face

On a more practical note some users simply tap the bottom of the tank against the palm of their hands so no noise and it seems to work.

pentaxuser

Thanks, the whole tapping is a side thing, and again, I no longer have the MOD54 so not using 1300ml of developer every time... And no powders or bad faces.

Thanks though

 

[markbarendt]

local exhaustion.

I don't think that this is the cause.

My understanding is that the hope of developer exhaustion and reduced agitation (compensation) is that the darkest shadow areas of the scene keep developing while the brightest highlights in the scene will slow or stop developing. If the stars align properly, and you have added just enough eye of newt, all the subject matter you want stays within the paper's printable range. Theoretically the shadows get pulled up the curve more than normal developing and the brightest highlights don't get pushed up the curve as far (sacrifices in contrast must be made and those tones compressed on the negative in order to avoid the need burning & dodging). In the end hopefully the mid-tones still have the snap normal developing would have brought.

Reducing contrast though does not enhance sharpness. The mid-tones from a compensated negative might visually look a bit sharper (or snappier) but IMO that is because there is less competition from the highlights and shadows that now look less so and because most compensating schemes use dilute developers.

Edge effects/accutance/sharpness, whatever one might call it, can be enhanced by the developer, I think much of this has to do with how strong or weak the solvent action is. For example Xtol and D76 and the like can be made to produce somewhat sharper negatives by using more dilute solutions 1:4 rather than less diluted 1:0 or 1:1. This is because the solvent effect gets diluted and it can't smooth the edges of the silver crystals as much. We get a bit grainier/bit sharper result.

Note: I'm not suggesting that compensation is magic or simply doesn't work, just that it's application is not as easy or effective as some suggest.

 

[Truzi]

Stone, try not to feel too bad about living with your parents as an adult - I am currently in the same situation, though without as many restrictions. I know it's not what may be desired, but shit happens.
My Father died two years ago, and had an host of medical problems, so I did have to curtail certain activities when he was in the house due to his COPD and other lung issues.

I look at it as having the opportunity to enjoy time with my parents in a way I'd not have been able to had I had my own place; seeing and talking to them daily (including arguments). Being Italian (I am part as well), you can always just tell people you are very traditional, lol. As for the neighbors, you know the cliche about good fences? Just tell your parents "scaring" them is similar to a psychological boundary

 

[StoneNYC]

I don't think that this is the cause.

My understanding is that the hope of developer exhaustion and reduced agitation (compensation) is that the darkest shadow areas of the scene keep developing while the brightest highlights in the scene will slow or stop developing. If the stars align properly, and you have added just enough eye of newt, all the subject matter you want stays within the paper's printable range. Theoretically the shadows get pulled up the curve more than normal developing and the brightest highlights don't get pushed up the curve as far (sacrifices in contrast must be made and those tones compressed on the negative in order to avoid the need burning & dodging). In the end hopefully the mid-tones still have the snap normal developing would have brought.

Reducing contrast though does not enhance sharpness. The mid-tones from a compensated negative might visually look a bit sharper (or snappier) but IMO that is because there is less competition from the highlights and shadows that now look less so and because most compensating schemes use dilute developers.

Edge effects/accutance/sharpness, whatever one might call it, can be enhanced by the developer, I think much of this has to do with how strong or weak the solvent action is. For example Xtol and D76 and the like can be made to produce somewhat sharper negatives by using more dilute solutions 1:4 rather than less diluted 1:0 or 1:1. This is because the solvent effect gets diluted and it can't smooth the edges of the silver crystals as much. We get a bit grainier/bit sharper result.

Note: I'm not suggesting that compensation is magic or simply doesn't work, just that it's application is not as easy or effective as some suggest.

Thanks,

At one point while testing Rodinal, it was suggested to me that I be very very very delicate with my agitation, and I ended up agitating only one rotation very very gently every minute, rather then two or three inversions, only one again very very slowly and gently, this made my negatives very sharp with a nice glow about them that I really enjoyed, so I'm trying to match that while using basically the opposite technique of continuous agitation.

I also wonder if the Beseler is rotating faster than a JOBO would... I wonder what slowing down the agitation would do? But maybe that could also cause bromide streaking...I don't know...

 

[StoneNYC]

Stone, try not too feel too bad about living with your parents as an adult - I am currently in the same situation, though without as many restrictions. I know it's not what may be desired, but shit happens.
My Father died two years ago, and had an host of medical problems, so I did have to curtail certain activities when he was in the house due to his COPD and other lung issues.

I look at it as having the opportunity to enjoy time with my parents in a way I'd not have been able to had I had my own place; seeing and talking to them daily (including arguments). Being Italian (I am part as well), you can always just tell people you are very traditional, lol. As for the neighbors, you know the cliche about good fences? Just tell your parents "scaring" them is similar to a psychological boundary

Hah!

 

[markbarendt]

I use the slowest speed on my JOBO. Kinda think once you get to a certain point it doesn't change development that much, you're simply keeping fresh developer available to the film all the time. At considerably higher speeds, which are suggested by JOBO for paper, I had issues with too much turbulence and uneven developing where the ridges that hold the paper straight in the drum caused issues at the paper's edge. I've got a Beseler base hidden around here somewhere that as I remember doesn't run much faster that the slow setting on the JOBO, so probably no issue.

Just for giggles give your DD-X a run at 1+9 and double your normal developing time. (Refine from there if that helps. 1+7...) That could cut the cost by about half and if it gives you the right look that would be priceless.

 

[StoneNYC]

I use the slowest speed on my JOBO. Kinda think once you get to a certain point it doesn't change development that much, you're simply keeping fresh developer available to the film all the time. At considerably higher speeds, which are suggested by JOBO for paper, I had issues with too much turbulence and uneven developing where the ridges that hold the paper straight in the drum caused issues at the paper's edge. I've got a Beseler base hidden around here somewhere that as I remember doesn't run much faster that the slow setting on the JOBO, so probably no issue.

Just for giggles give your DD-X a run at 1+9 and double your normal developing time. (Refine from there if that helps. 1+7...) That could cut the cost by about half and if it gives you the right look that would be priceless.

I kept thinking the NORMAL dilution for DD-X was 1+9 but it's not it's 1+4.... Ugh, even more expensive ... I'll try it...