A Lazy Man's Zone System

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tykos

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just shoot some easy and not crazy contrasty scenes.
when in doubt, overexpose (or set lower iso).
develop slightly less than datasheets, especially if the enlarger is a condenser one.
look at the negative and the print. Where are the problems? you need to expose less? more? develop less? more?
shoot, again.
etc.

Zone system is nice, but i don't think one should need all that hassle when starting. Just have fun and learn what your materials are and how they behave in various situations.
 

khh

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I just wanted to use my camera's built-in light meter and make nice prints. 🙁
With both my Canon T90 and my Canon EOS 5, cameras from the 80s and 90s with built-in metering, I've found that for the vast majority of scenes will expose well just using the built in meter, box speed and manufacturer recommended development. It gives perfectly scannable and printable negatives. And all the major lines of B&W photographic paper these days are variable grade, which gives you quite a bit of leeway for small inaccuriaces. Personally it's only for very high contrast scenes (e.g. where the sun is in the frame) and night time photography I bother with more involved methods for 35mm.

You absolutely can make nice prints just using your cameras built in meter.
 

pentaxuser

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Sorry. I called it that because John Finch titled his video series "EZ Zone System".

He may have said this for his audience, many of whom may have seen his first video on setting a personal ISO and film development time. His second method involves less and easier "testing"

Whether we purists like it or not most people and those from whom he draws his audience and income do associate the zone system with what he demonstrates in these videos

Sometimes we are in danger of forgetting that most users of film live in a different world from the Photrio one

dcy reflects this outside world in his statement quoted by Matt, namely "I just wanted to use my camera's built-in light meter and make nice prints." 🙁

pentaxuser
 

Milpool

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He may have said this for his audience, many of whom may have seen his first video on setting a personal ISO and film development time. His second method involves less and easier "testing"

Whether we purists like it or not most people and those from whom he draws his audience and income do associate the zone system with what he demonstrates in these videos

Sometimes we are in danger of forgetting that most users of film live in a different world from the Photrio one

dcy reflects this outside world in his statement quoted by Matt, namely "I just wanted to use my camera's built-in light meter and make nice prints." 🙁

pentaxuser

I find myself in the odd position of defending this EZ Zone System - not because it’s a good method (it isn’t), but because in principle setting yourself up to make great negatives whether using the Zone System or no system, is quite simple, and a lot simpler than the so-called “purists” would have themselves and others believe. It’s an easy thing with a lot of flowery language lumped on to it. In fact it is easier than this EZ method.
 

pentaxuser

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I find myself in the odd position of defending this EZ Zone System - not because it’s a good method (it isn’t), but because in principle setting yourself up to make great negatives whether using the Zone System or no system, is quite simple, and a lot simpler than the so-called “purists” would have themselves and others believe. It’s an easy thing with a lot of flowery language lumped on to it. In fact it is easier than this EZ method.

Are there 2 different methods to which you refer, both of which have a description of EZ? What is the Zone system to which you refer and which is the easier method. I may realise why it is easier that what I think is John Finch's EZ method in you last sentence but I am confused currently

Thanks

pentaxuser
 

RalphLambrecht

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I had great results with my first camera Pentax with a averaging meter. Then (in 1973) I switched to a Nikon F2S, center weighted, I didn't know how to use it.
I believe sunny 16 and the old dataguides.

Nikon F5 matrix metering rocks 😊😎

Nikon's matrixmetering never dissappointed me. I gave up on the Zone System because of it.
 

GregY

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""I just wanted to use my camera's built-in light meter and make nice prints." 🙁
That's an honest goal...& the answer is simpler than many of dcys' threads and posts might suggest.
The camera is a tool...It's a parallel to "I just got a new hammer and want to make stuff."
Spend less time watching you tube videos and overthinking the process. Learn how your camera works by using it. Let the lightbulb come on ....that in essence a camera meter wants to make everything in BW, 18% grey. Figure out how to fool/adjust your camera to make a white barn, snow, white sand....the colour they are. At the other end of the spectrum....adjust to make a black cat, a dark forest....the colour they are. Pick a standard developer and process your film....it's not that hard. Make prints.
You'll get a mix of results..... try to figure out why. We all learn by doing & you won't get by without making miistakes.
 

MattKing

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FWIW, the Pentax 17 with built in meter that my friend has seems to do a really good job producing well exposed negatives in a wide variety of lighting situations.
It seems to be a really good camera.
 

GregY

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FWIW, the Pentax 17 with built in meter that my friend has seems to do a really good job producing well exposed negatives in a wide variety of lighting situations.
It seems to be a really good camera.

What's the old phrase MK.... "A poor workman blames his tools......"
 
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My interest in film photography is at the lever where I have a budget enlarger and want to make prints, but not at the level where I want to use a manual camera, meter every scene, use a densitometer, and actually learn the zone system. I want to share my plan for how to tune my process. I was hoping someone could confirm that this is probably good enough for an amateur to get prints he'd be happy to put in the family photo album. I started with John Finch's "EZ Zone System" and dumbed it down by removing the light meter:

Step 0: Pick a film + film developer + paper combo [*].
Step 1: Go outside, find a scene with moderate contrast, and take several shots with a range of ISO settings.
Step 2: Use the enlarger to make a test strip through the film base and find the shortest exposure that makes the blackest black that your paper + paper developer can produce --- This is your enlarger setting for this combo [*].
Step 3: Enlarge the photos with that setting and find the ISO where you can first see shadow detail. --- This is your personal film ISO.
Step 4: Go back outside, shoot another roll at that ISO, cut it into strips. Develop each strip for a different time. Find the development time that allows you to see details in the highlights.

Done! Now you have your default development time + film ISO + enlarger settings. Some scenes still require adjusting EV and scenes with too much or too little contrast may require Grade filters at the enlarger. For roll film, don't mess with the film development time unless the entire roll is of very similar scenes.

Using a different film, developer, or paper would require doing a new test.

What do you think?
Dyed-in-the-wool Zone-System user here.

My recommendation: Don't bother will all this testing or even the Zone System if you're using a roll-film camera and the in-camera meter. Here's my take on your EZ Zone System and my suggestions for the steps:

Step 0: Great! use one film and D-23 for a while. That means until you have a good reason to change.

Step 1:
Finding an E.I. is important, but it really depends on how you meter. If you're not basing your exposure on a shadow value (ZS parlance, "placing the shadow"), then your in-camera meter will be fairly close, as long as it's functioning correctly. If you want some insurance, rate your film a third-stop or two-thirds stop slower than the ISO. It's not that necessary, though.

EZer method: shoot a roll of film in "moderate" conditions, develop it at the recommended time (for starters) and head to the darkroom to make prints.

Step 2, 3 and 4:
The "minimum time to find max black" test is valid, but not as easy as you might expect. Determining what max black is tends to be the problem. Depending on lighting you can see more or less separation in the darkest areas of the print, making finding the first indistinguishable step between a given exposure and the next really difficult. Usually people see too many steps of black and end up with an E.I. that is ridiculously too slow. Finding your developing time with the ZS assumes you know the contrast range (better, Subject Luminance Range) of your scene. If you're not metering that, then don't bother.

EZer method: make your best print, with good contrasts and good whites and blacks using VC paper and whatever contrast setting is necessary.

Evaluating the print will tell you a lot (note: this is important!). If you needed a lot more contrast than #2-2.5 filtration, then you need to increase development time, and vice versa. If your shadow detail is not there, you need to give more exposure (rate the film slower). Note that this takes care of Steps 2-4 all at once.

Then, refine as you go.

Important notes to speed your success:

1. Your in-camera meter will work well with moderate-contrast and flat scenes. It will tend to underexpose in contrasty situations. You need to learn to recognize really contrasty scenes and use your exposure compensation to give more exposure. One stop extra for contrasty scenes; two stops extra for very contrasty scenes. This can seem counter-intuitive at first, but it's correct. Your meter aims for a middle value. In contrasty scenes, the middle is too high to give adequate exposure to the shadows. That's why you need more exposure.

2. When printing, base your print exposure on a textured highlight area. Find the right exposure for that, make a test print at your chosen (or best guess) contrast setting and then evaluate it. Adjust print contrast to get the full range of tones and the shadow detail you want. Note: you'll have to make a new exposure test strip when you change contrast. It's time well-spent; don't skimp here.

3. Evaluate your prints to give you information to refine your exposure and development. Every print is an exposure/film development test. It's pretty simple: not enough shadow detail? Rate your film slower, and vice versa. Consistently printing at a really high contrast setting? Develop your film longer (15% is a good starting increment), and vice versa. Keep refining till most of your shots of moderate contrast scenes print around #2 and #3 filtration (film development time) and you are getting the separation in the shadows you want (film exposure).

That's it. Go make some pictures.

Doremus
 

DREW WILEY

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Poor workmen tend to use poor tools; so it all goes hand in hand. Or ... even if someone gives them a good tool, they misuse it.
The main point with any metering system is to get thoroughly familiar with it through practice.
 

Milpool

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Are there 2 different methods to which you refer, both of which have a description of EZ? What is the Zone system to which you refer and which is the easier method. I may realise why it is easier that what I think is John Finch's EZ method in you last sentence but I am confused currently

Thanks

pentaxuser

Apologies for the confusion.

There are many ways of "calibrating" for the Zone System and/or print setups, some easy, some more involved, some with more pitfalls than others etc. I have not observed there to be much of a correlation between the complexity of the procedure and the utility of the result.

A point I'd make about the John Finch EZ method in question is that it could be simpler and be at least as good. For example if the ISO speed given is reliable (Kodak, Ilford, Fuji) and the processing chemistry / procedures aren't complete garbage, the Zone System (or "personal EI") is 2/3 stop lower than the ISO speed. That effectively gives you a safety factor against underexposure. Round that to an even 1 stop and you're ok for mislabeled films (Foma etc.). Then there's the "minimum time to maximum black" printing time. Assuming you judge it properly, what is that telling you? And of what value is it?
 

GregY

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Poor workmen tend to use poor tools; so it all goes hand in hand. Or ... even if someone gives them a good tool, they misuse it.
The main point with any metering system is to get thoroughly familiar with it through practice.

Yes.....
"through practice"
at the risk of hammering the same nail.... how many posts & threads about nuances of different developer, EZ Z system, correcting poor negative through.... before it's acknowledged as photo procrastination.?
To paraphrase the Nike ads.... "Just do the work...."
 
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Milpool

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Poor workmen tend to use poor tools; so it all goes hand in hand. Or ... even if someone gives them a good tool, they misuse it.
The main point with any metering system is to get thoroughly familiar with it through practice.

"These are the Glengarry leads..." LOL
 
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...
For example if the ISO speed given is reliable (Kodak, Ilford, Fuji) and the processing chemistry / procedures aren't complete garbage, the Zone System (or "personal EI") is 2/3 stop lower than the ISO speed. That effectively gives you a safety factor against underexposure. Round that to an even 1 stop and you're ok for mislabeled films (Foma etc.). Then there's the "minimum time to maximum black" printing time. Assuming you judge it properly, what is that telling you? And of what value is it?
Two things:

The Zone System E.I. is predicated on using a shadow value to base your exposure. Doing that (spot meter or whatever) and using the ZS scale ends up putting the ZS E.I. 2/3-stop lower than the ISO. However, when using an in-camera averaging meter for general exposure info and NOT pointing it at a shadow value, that is not the case.

Minimum exposure for maximum paper black is a useful tool for determining if adequate exposure has been given to render the shadows as desired (assuming proper evaluation of the blacks), but it has its pitfalls. It's dependent on lighting and paper contrast setting. In the old days (Minor White, et al., who advocated using this in place of a densitometer), the idea was to pick a printing paper and use its grade 2 as the standard. This meant that min time to max black could vary depending on paper choice. And, of course, time to max black will be different for different contrast grades/settings.

And then there's the problem with finding that max black point. I can see three more 10% exposure stripes down into the black in full sunlight than I can in much dimmer "gallery lighting." Choosing your viewing light makes a huge difference here; it's not nearly as cut and dried as some think. I find it useful for making proper proofs; I don't have to be exact, but having a good proper proof helps me find initial contrast settings and helps me keep an eye on my processing.

Best,

Doremus
 
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dcy

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Learn how your camera works by using it...
You'll get a mix of results..... try to figure out why. We all learn by doing & you won't get by without making miistakes.

Well... It's not like I'm not using the camera. But during the work week I am at work. I shoot mostly on weekends. When I'm home at night and I'm bored I can't really do much more than plan what I want to do next.

Furthermore, I thought it would be a good idea to do a dedicated test and shoot the same handful of scenes over and over with different films and different developers. I suggested that idea in the forum, precisely in response to another comment about being willing to make mistakes. I received very positive responses for that idea. So I went ahead and spent over an hour in the hot New Mexico sun doing the shoot, then I started developing the films, and now the feedback I'm getting makes it sound like the whole thing was a huge mistake and a huge waste of my time because I shouldn't be trying out films and developers --- some of this from members that said the test was a great idea. And as I said in another thread, I didn't even start out looking for new developers. I had PC-TEA and was happy with it, and some members of this forum strongly nudged me toward D76 and D23, so I figured I'd follow that advice.

I understand that this forum isn't a single have mind and conflicting opinions are to be expected. That's just the nature of things. I'm just hoping for a little bit of understanding that I am receiving conflicting advice, sometimes from the same people, and I am doing my best to follow the advice without going crazy or making my life miserable.
 

Yezishu

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FWIW, the Pentax 17 with built in meter that my friend has seems to do a really good job producing well exposed negatives in a wide variety of lighting situations.
It seems to be a really good camera.

Your friend must be quite experienced. The Pentax 17 appears to use either center-weighted or average metering with a single sensor, which may be not much different from the Pen D2/D3 from decades ago. In skilled hands, it can perform very well—but such users also have no problem in using separate light meters or rely on their own judgment.
 
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dcy

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Your friend must be quite experienced. The Pentax 17 appears to use either center-weighted or average metering with a single sensor, which may be not much different from the Pen D2/D3 from decades ago. In skilled hands, it can perform very well—but such users also have no problem in using separate light meters or rely on their own judgment.

I think the purpose of Matt's comment was to be encouraging and reassure me that I can learn to use my Pentax 17 to take good photos and make nice prints. At least, that's how I took it.
 

MattKing

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I think the purpose of Matt's comment was to be encouraging and reassure me that I can learn to use my Pentax 17 to take good photos and make nice prints. At least, that's how I took it.

Yep.
Your friend must be quite experienced. The Pentax 17 appears to use either center-weighted or average metering with a single sensor, which may be not much different from the Pen D2/D3 from decades ago. In skilled hands, it can perform very well—but such users also have no problem in using separate light meters or rely on their own judgment.

He is quite experienced.
But he is also fairly likely to point the camera at the scene and let the camera do its thing, unless it is one of those scenes which are more challenging to meter than most.
And as for those single sensor meter cameras - lots and lots of well exposed negatives have come from them over the decades - including sometimes my own negatives using cameras like Olympus or Canon small rangefinders.
It just isn't usually that complex to do this, unless you need the last level of refinement, which is rarely the case.
 

koraks

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I am doing my best to follow the advice without going crazy or making my life miserable.

I'd strongly recommend to stop doing that. Take advice as input for your own decision-making, not as gospel. Whatever you do, there's always bound to be someone who thinks you did the wrong thing. Try not to give a f about it. It's the only way to survive.
 

GregY

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Well... It's not like I'm not using the camera. But during the work week I am at work. I shoot mostly on weekends. When I'm home at night and I'm bored I can't really do much more than plan what I want to do next.

Furthermore, I thought it would be a good idea to do a dedicated test and shoot the same handful of scenes over and over with different films and different developers. I suggested that idea in the forum, precisely in response to another comment about being willing to make mistakes. I received very positive responses for that idea. So I went ahead and spent over an hour in the hot New Mexico sun doing the shoot, then I started developing the films, and now the feedback I'm getting makes it sound like the whole thing was a huge mistake and a huge waste of my time because I shouldn't be trying out films and developers --- some of this from members that said the test was a great idea. And as I said in another thread, I didn't even start out looking for new developers. I had PC-TEA and was happy with it, and some members of this forum strongly nudged me toward D76 and D23, so I figured I'd follow that advice.

I understand that this forum isn't a single have mind and conflicting opinions are to be expected. That's just the nature of things. I'm just hoping for a little bit of understanding that I am receiving conflicting advice, sometimes from the same people, and I am doing my best to follow the advice without going crazy or making my life miserable.

If I may dcy, going to an(y) internet forum and deciding what your photo process will be, based on that alone, is like basing your understanding of current events on ****** cable news. There are lots of well written books on photography....(some have been mentioned. Adams, Horenstein, Lambrecht) .....any one of them would be more reliable than internet discussion.

Moderator note: comment edited and made slightly less specific, to make it less likely to bring rise to politics!
 
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Yezishu

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I think the purpose of Matt's comment was to be encouraging and reassure me that I can learn to use my Pentax 17 to take good photos and make nice prints. At least, that's how I took it.

Sorry, I didn't want to discourage and hope you don’t mind if my word wasn’t well-considered. The Pentax 17 is a good camera, as is the Pen D, they can definitely take good photos.
My point is just that every camera/metering mode has its own traits, for example, if it uses average metering over the whole frame, it might favor the background over the subject when there’s a big brightness difference. Or, when shooting close-ups, the sensor’s position above the lens makes it more sensitive to the top of the frame. The more you shot and check results, the more you’ll get used to these traits. This is a well-crafted and easy-to-use camera., but sometimes you still need to guide it and make some decisions yourself. As Matt said, you can sense when you can confidently leave things to it, and in those occasional, less common situations, do some refinement.
 
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