A Kiev-88 -- everything you didn't know about it...

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flavio81

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Well, finally it happened -- a Kiev 88 arrived to me for routine maintenance/service.

I had never seen one in real life, only through the web, articles, etc. In general, and for many technical reasons, i plainly refuse to service any soviet camera, even though I would love to own some of them like the Kiev-15.

I will describe here certain peculiarities that are often never mentioned on reviews of this camera.

So, for the ones who didn't know this already, the Kiev-88 is an evolution of the Kiev-80 itself an evolution of the Salyut-S itself an evolution of the Salyut... which is almost a direct copy of the Hasselblad 1600F. The soviet ones all use almost the same screw mount (the Hasselblad is slightly different), and there are later versions (i.e. Kiev-88CM) with the Pentacon Six mount. Lens availability is wide, from fisheye to tele, and lenses are generally liked.

A close examination of the Kiev-88 service manuals and the Hassy 1600F service manual will show how similar they are externally and internally; for example the speed retarder circuit is completely identical. This camera (and the 1600F/1000F) has a very atypical way of achieving the delay for the slow speeds: a fan!! Yes, the retard system uses a small propeller that rotates at high speed to achieve the delay down to 1/2sec speed.

This means the camera will make a curious "camera go brrrrrr" noise after fired. You don't hear the typical clockwork whirr common to mechanical cameras fired at slow speed.

Another peculiar thing on those cameras is the outer-shell/inner-shell construction. The camera itself and its mechanism are supported by a cage which in turn goes into a cage that provides the body of the camera. In theory this would make the camera nearly indestructible, sadly once you check out the mechanism you'll see you need to be gentle with it.

There are interlocks -- you can't release the camera with the dark slide in; nor you can release the back with the dark slide in. This already makes it better than the original RB67, lol. It has no easy provision for dual exposures, unless of course you make some tricks.

The camera backs use the very ancient system for frame spacing that doesn't measure actual linear film advance, and thus it relies on a specific thickness of the film to work right (unless re-adjusted). It also needs you to peep through a small window until finding frame 1. Then, reset the counter to "1" and you're all set. You also have no obvious warning to know the roll has ended unless you peep at the counter or are very aware of the change of resistance when winding.

There is a lot of tension applied to the main (winding) knob, since it needs to tension curtains and advance film. So my piece of advice for owners is have camera AND backs well lubricated! Otherwise, died grease and oil from the Gorbachev/Brezhnev or even Kruschev era will put dangerous stress on the whole mechanism!!

Now, some of the nicest thing about this machine is not just that it looks like a regular Hasselblad 500C for the unitiated -- it also allows you to experience the very same light leaks and occasional jamming than in the old Hasselblads, for much less money!! @Sirius Glass take note.

The design of the light trap for the dark slide has to be one of the worst of all times. Basically, a strip of foam wrapped in a simple folded strip of fragile aluminium foil is all that is used as a light seal. This must to be one of the worst designs of all-time and the culprit are not the soviets but the Swedish: it is exactly the same design as in the classic Hassy backs, including the ones used in the 500C and C/M. Quite unlike the design on the Mamiya RB67 or Bronica backs where a sturdy, sprung metal leaf with felt on top provides the light seal for the dark slide, and only rarely gives trouble.

This kiev was provided with two backs and both had a TON of light leaking through the dark slide. A TON of it, easily ruining the roll even on moderate lighting coditions.

Now for the good parts, the mirror shock and vibrations in general are commendably low. I'm sure this machine can be handheld at low speeds with success. Б. Маргарет Сагдиев, a contemporary reviewer in Kazahstan (Kazakh SSR) wrote that this was a "Great Success!!" and wanted to give a "High five!" to (congratulate) the designers for "make benefit glorous nation of available-light photographers".

On to the more technical side, many times the Hasselblad 1600F is considered "a failure" due to not being able to sustain the 1/1600 speed with uniformity. This was to be obvious even on the design stage -- at 1/1600 speed, with typical curtain travel times to achieve sync at 1/30, means only 2,5% of the curtain is opened as a slit, in other words a slit of only 1.4mm (!!) which is absurd. So Hasselblad released the 1/1000 with a lower top speed. In the same way, the soviet camera (Salyut) had its top speed reduced to 1000 as well, as part as the evolution of the machine.

They say the Hasselblad 1000F wasn't also a reliable machine, and I am not sure if this is true. In any case, what Hasselblad did afterwards was a very clever move: let all the critical, hard-to-make stuff to be designed and made by other company -- so they went to use leaf shutters (Synchro Compur) by Deckel, and the rest is history.

As for the Kiev-88, so far i've seen the mechanism and I can't find anything that would make them inherently unreliable other than poor material quality or finish. Certainly the example i have at hand (made in 1985) doesn't show gears or levers with the polish and quality of something inside a Bronica or inside the best german camera makers. Yes, i don't like the materials quality on the inside and I think the eBay price for these machines is currently higher than it should. But i'm thinking that unreliability, on examples that have been properly assembled, should be more due to lack of maintenance. And, of course, getting uniform exposure at 1/1000 means having the mechanism very clean, lubricated, and adjusted. Otherwise, forget it. But the same is true, for example, of any pro 35mm SLR camera with 1/2000 top speed and an horizontal curtain.

But I can see a camera like the Arax versions of these machines, where the gears and the mechanisms have been upgraded and properly fitted, being very very reliable, or at least not less reliable than any other focal-plane shutter medium format camera.

Another thing is lack of flocking. The mirror box is surrounded by three panels of rather shiny black paint. Couple this with the bright copper-colored shutter curtains and this is a galore of reflections within the mirror box! There are flocking kits sold on e-bay, another practical solution is to use an efficient hood like a compendium hood, to narrow down the light rays at the film plane.

The lens fitted is a MC Volna-3, which indeed shows multi-coating applied to most (all?) its surfaces, has a nice smooth focus movement. Iris blades are shiny which is also another no-no. Theorically they should be matte black or at least gray. But well, the loved lenses from Carl Zeiss Jena often sport shiny iris blades and nobody complains. Lens dimensions are very compact.

Now, finally, other bad news: Documentation, or the lack of it. There is no service manual in english available other than a very poor "TENTO" manual which leaves a lot of details out. I have a better manual in my hands but it's completely in russian. Thus, I think the service of these machines should be ideally left to specialists such as Arax in Ukraine (they're currently back in operation, against all odds!)

All in all, I would recommend this machine to anybody with enough patience to operate it gently and to source a well-cared-for sample in known good order. Certainly there is a very interesting lens system for it!!
 
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Sirius Glass

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I read your post carefully. I did learn more about the Hasselblad 1600 and 1000 than I knew before. You pointed out with references to lubrication and handling that any camera can be damaged or destroyed by not following instructions and maintenance practices. I am looking forward to seeing reports of your usage and photographs should you choose to post them. All the best!
 
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Wish you luck with the camera. I like mine and had provided some very good results. It is true that is hard finding one in working order. Got two bodies on working order and 2 others broken.

I've heard on many places that camera isn't very good on slow speeds due to vibration, but my experience told me it can produce good results on low speed, anything from 1/2 to 1/30.

Lens are quite good IMHO. Yeah, I'm a kievholic :tongue:

Marcelo
 
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flavio81

flavio81

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I read your post carefully. I did learn more about the Hasselblad 1600 and 1000 than I knew before. You pointed out with references to lubrication and handling that any camera can be damaged or destroyed by not following instructions and maintenance practices. I am looking forward to seeing reports of your usage and photographs should you choose to post them. All the best!

You're very kind. I was thinking of you when writing this post since you're such a Hasselblad fan. And in all confidence i say that i'd love to own a 1000F with a Kodak Ektar lens. In fact i did find a 1000F some years ago for a really cheap price and passed on it simply because I recalled it was the "bad" hasselblad. Now I have a deep regret!

As for the camera, it's not mine, and I've yet to decide if i'm going to service it fully or not. These soviet cameras can be troublesome, for example I am unable to service one of the backs since it has iron screws and two of such screws have rusted. The heads are very soft so you can't apply too much force either. All in all not an easy task.
 

GRHazelton

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Interesting! Using a fan for slow shutter speeds is .... ingenious, to say the least. Does this mean that slow speeds would be faster at high altitudes due to the thinner air exerting less drag on the fan? With proper ducting the fan could furnish a cooling breeze for the photographer.:D
flavio81's comments on foam light seals are amazing! To think that Hasselblad would use foam seals is appalling. Many cameras achieved light tight backs, etc., without foam, foam which inevitably deteriorates, often into a gooey mess. Yarn has been used; proper design and dull black finishes can also be effective. My Retina 1 has no yarn or foam, my Canon P needs a small bit of felt somewhere near the back hinge. My Contax IIa needs no foam or yarn, relying on dull black finished metal light traps instead. Of course the Contax IIa comes complete with Zeiss bumps, and a fully removable back bringing the opportunity to lose the take up spool!:cry:
Kudoes to Arax for still being in operation despite Mr Putin's depredations! I've heard good things about Arax, although I think I'll stay with my Bronica S2a and my Bronica ERTSi.
 
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flavio81

flavio81

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I've heard on many places that camera isn't very good on slow speeds due to vibration, but my experience told me it can produce good results on low speed, anything from 1/2 to 1/30.

Maintenance can also make a difference. For example the foam bumpers need to be renewed before considering a camera to have too much of a mirror shock.
 
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flavio81

flavio81

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Interesting! Using a fan for slow shutter speeds is .... ingenious, to say the least. Does this mean that slow speeds would be faster at high altitudes due to the thinner air exerting less drag on the fan? With proper ducting the fan could furnish a cooling breeze for the photographer.:D

I mentioned this on a camera repair professionals' forum and a few people noted this (fan escapements) is something that is sometimes found on clocks. So it was watchmaking practices. Lol at your comments on air density, and in theory you're correct!!

And here it is!! Part #9 is the fan.

1650658556631.png

flavio81's comments on foam light seals are amazing! To think that Hasselblad would use foam seals is appalling. Many cameras achieved light tight backs, etc., without foam, foam which inevitably deteriorates, often into a gooey mess. Yarn has been used; proper design and dull black finishes can also be effective. My Retina 1 has no yarn or foam, my Canon P needs a small bit of felt somewhere near the back hinge. My Contax IIa needs no foam or yarn, relying on dull black finished metal light traps instead. Of course the Contax IIa comes complete with Zeiss bumps, and a fully removable back bringing the opportunity to lose the take up spool!:cry:
Kudoes to Arax for still being in operation despite Mr Putin's depredations! I've heard good things about Arax, although I think I'll stay with my Bronica S2a and my Bronica ERTSi.

Well, it was a foam strip wrapped inside an aluminium foil. And the 500-series Hasselblad backs use the same thing, look at this image, it is the trapezoid-stuff at the right. The kiev back is almost identical in that part.

1650658674013.png


Kudoes to Arax for still being in operation despite Mr Putin's depredations! I've heard good things about Arax, although I think I'll stay with my Bronica S2a and my Bronica ERTSi.
Yep, i'm a happy ETRS/Si owner. But i would love to mount some of the Soviet/Ukranian lenses on my camera, or at least on my Pentax 67! A great thing about soviet lens designers was that they did care about bokeh and rendering.
 
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Sirius Glass

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When I had an opportunity to buy a Hasselblad 1000 my Hasselblad repairman told me not to buy it and not to buy the 200 or 2000 series either. So I went out and bought the 903 SWC instead after he inspected it.
 

mshchem

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"make benefit glorous nation of available-light photographers".

THIS IS HILARIOUS!!

Replacing light seals is a rite of passage for Hasselblad photographers. I bought a beautiful mid 80's back for $10 at a Garage sale, a little solvent and a light seal and it works great.
The replacement seals I get are Mylar, with the gray foam. When you take out the old seals the original foam has completely collapsed, often turned to dust.
The Soviets were great at reverse engineering, Boeing B-29 bomber as an example
 
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flavio81

flavio81

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When I had an opportunity to buy a Hasselblad 1000 my Hasselblad repairman told me not to buy it and not to buy the 200 or 2000 series either. So I went out and bought the 903 SWC instead after he inspected it.

Well, the 200 series, of course, are decades ahead in technology, more advanced, etc. Makes sense.
 

AgX

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I mentioned this on a camera repair professionals' forum and a few people noted this (fan escapements) is something that is sometimes found on clocks. So it was watchmaking practices.

In contrast to these Hasselblad/Arsenal cameras a fan is used at clocks not for critical time control, but for lesser operation as the chime.
At mechanical music boxes a fan was used to control the speed of playing.
 

jnamia

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And here it is!! Part #9 is the fan.

it is great to see you working on this camera! using a fan as part of the internal clockwork is ingenious. it reminds me of the super extra extreme wide angle Hypergon lens, also uses a fan but on the outside not the inside!
 

reddesert

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Yep, i'm a happy ETRS/Si owner. But i would love to mount some of the Soviet/Ukranian lenses on my camera, or at least on my Pentax 67! A great thing about soviet lens designers was that they did care about bokeh and rendering.

The Mamiya 645 would be a good platform for Kiev 60 and 88 lenses, because of its focal plane shutter and short flange to film distance. Relatively inexpensive adapters are available for this purpose. I doubt if a Pentax 6x7 would work due to the longer flange distance (unless the lens can sit inside the flange, and then I'd worry about it hitting the mirror).

I have a Kiev 88CM with shutter problems - it fires but the second curtain predictably hangs at some speed settings and the slit doesn't open at others. (I'm not upset as I bought it in this condition for next to nothing.) Probably something is out of adjustment in the speed setting/curtain release "stacked gear" mechanism, which seems a little baroque to me, but I haven't tried to fix it yet.

As you are probably aware, there is a pdf writeup by Steve Ash covering basic cleaning/lubrication of the Kiev 88 that can be found on the web. Arax has some photos showing the much more extensive disassembly of these cameras that they can do.
 

gone

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Fun reading! Thanks for taking the time to do this. I've always been curious about those cameras, but not curious enough to buy one after a string of FSU camera failures. FSU lenses are another matter, I've used some really nice ones.
 

itsdoable

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Nice write-up Flavio.

I have a 1000f, as well as various flavors of Kiev-88 that I've worked on, and the Hasselblad version is definitely better made.

The pneumatic governor was problematic (on the Hasselblad too) because it was exposed to the element from the lens opening, and would get dust and debris contamination, which the spinning vane was sensitive to. It was also very sensitive to the quality of oil used. It was selected because it generated less vibration than the typical inertial governors.

The dark slide light seal design from 1948 remained unchanged right through to 2006, so despite how people criticized it, it remained a professional feature throughout the life of the V series. It depended on the quality of foam used, and the factory versions would last +10 years, and was a easily replaceable part. The Hasselblad V remained the smallest 6x6 system SLR throughout it's life, and some compromises were made to achieve that. The Bronica S (designed not long after) had a longer lasting dark slide light seal that consisted of interlocking corrugated spring steel, but it took much more space, and the camera was significantly bigger.

All design choices have trade-offs, and they were tweaked as necessary with each iteration of camera. The pneumatic govenor did not survive, but (to the dismay of many) the dark slide light seal did.
 

AgX

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The pneumatic governor ... was selected because it generated less vibration than the typical inertial governors.


Interesting piece of information, though puzling seen the inertia of the whole body with lens, compared to a clockworks. I have to contemplate on this.
 

itsdoable

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Interesting piece of information, though puzling seen the inertia of the whole body with lens, compared to a clockworks. I have to contemplate on this.
... and the shutter. And the Mirror! There is a reason that inertial governors were standard throughout mechanical shutters, even on Large Format cameras, despite the buzz and vibration they produced. The engineer that Victor use was originally a clock maker, and it was his foray into reducing one source of vibration. The original 500c had a huge pneumatic damper for the mirror, which was later replaced by a rubber brake (sorry- off topic!).
 

warden

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Thanks Flavio, for an enjoyable read about soviet cameras I know nothing about.

"The design of the light trap for the dark slide has to be one of the worst of all times. Basically, a strip of foam wrapped in a simple folded strip of fragile aluminium foil is all that is used as a light seal. This must to be one of the worst designs of all-time ..."

After replacing my light trap a few times on a Hassy all I can say is that I couldn't agree more. It's an awful design on an otherwise good camera.
 

AgX

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Why then users replaced those seals by same stuff and did not mount a strip of velvet instead?
I am ignorant on Hasselblads, what do I overlook?
 

Sirius Glass

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Why then users replaced those seals by same stuff and did not mount a strip of velvet instead?
I am ignorant on Hasselblads, what do I overlook?

I use the light trap that Hasselblad designed and I never had a problem. Why fix that which is not broken?
 
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flavio81

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As you are probably aware, there is a pdf writeup by Steve Ash covering basic cleaning/lubrication of the Kiev 88 that can be found on the web. Arax has some photos showing the much more extensive disassembly of these cameras that they can do.
I'm grateful for this pdf but it doesn't even scratch the surface concerning the serious stuff like shutter adjustment.
 
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flavio81

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Nice write-up Flavio.

I have a 1000f, as well as various flavors of Kiev-88 that I've worked on, and the Hasselblad version is definitely better made.

The pneumatic governor was problematic (on the Hasselblad too) because it was exposed to the element from the lens opening, and would get dust and debris contamination, which the spinning vane was sensitive to. It was also very sensitive to the quality of oil used. It was selected because it generated less vibration than the typical inertial governors.

The dark slide light seal design from 1948 remained unchanged right through to 2006, so despite how people criticized it, it remained a professional feature throughout the life of the V series. It depended on the quality of foam used, and the factory versions would last +10 years, and was a easily replaceable part. The Hasselblad V remained the smallest 6x6 system SLR throughout it's life, and some compromises were made to achieve that. The Bronica S (designed not long after) had a longer lasting dark slide light seal that consisted of interlocking corrugated spring steel, but it took much more space, and the camera was significantly bigger.

All design choices have trade-offs, and they were tweaked as necessary with each iteration of camera. The pneumatic govenor did not survive, but (to the dismay of many) the dark slide light seal did.

Thanks for the info on the governor, very interesting.

As for the reallysilly dark slide protection, i refuse to call it a "professional" feature. Contrary to the popular opinion, I don't hold the engineering of the people at Victor Hasseblad AB in any higher regard than the other pro manufacturers. And btw that they took a lot, a lot, a TON of time to finally release a reliable focal plane shutter camera (only in the 90s). Which was their original intention all the time, really. (You can fit a leaf-shutter lens on a FP-shutter camera but not the other way around).

While on the mid 60s, Rollei made it (SL66) already had a reliable FP MF camera (SL66), on 1969 Pentax did the same, and then Mamiya (M645) and Bronica (EC) followed in the 70s.
 
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ruilourosa

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Kiev 60 seemed a nicer addition to my hasselblad things than 88... Reliability seems higher also....
 

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I'd like to play with an older Salyut camera, but Kiev/Salyut prices have risen, while Bronica and Hasselblad can still sometimes be had cheaply. It's the same situation with 35 mm, where Nikon can sometimes be had for less money than Kiev or even Zenit. Strange times!
 
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I suppose they have gone more expensive now. Seeing them on the 250-400dlls (or more) now (although that is the selling price and don't see them selling like hot bread). I think I got my first one for 80-100. I've got a couple of bodies (the ones I'm using now) from 150-180. This are bodies that where CLA and warrantied to work. I consider that a good investment since a) they work, b)support for technicians that service them and c)I absolutely enjoy a working Kiev :smile: .

True about Bronica. A Bronica ETRS is like a smaller, lighter and more reliable version of the Kiev 88 :smile:
 
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