4x5 shift cameras

[BarneyL]

Hello everyone,

I have recently grown interest in shift cameras, especially those that can use large format film. These seem to be great options for travelling, while also not being fiddly and somewhat annoying (at least for me) like folding field cameras. They have their own quirks, like special mounts for lenses, not a lot of movements apart from vertical/horizontal shift and limited focal length options, but I could live with those, since I don't need anything longer than a standard lens.

During mu research, I found following models that piqued my interest:
- Cambo Wide DS
- Silvestri S4
- Alvandi Panoral (these can be bought new)

Alvandi Panoral line of cameras looks like a great option, especially since it comes in multiple formats, and plethora of lens cones with helicoids that can be mounted by the user. However, it only allows a modest amount of rise, and no indirect rise to make up for it.

Both Cambo wide DS and Silvestri S4 allow 40mm of rise, which sounds awesome. Unfortunately these cameras are very hard to come by, especially with lenses in appropriate mounts.

Have you ever used any of these? What are your experiences? Do you know any other camera model of this type that I should consider?

 

[Dan Fromm]

You must be very rich or want to use only one lens. Lens cones are very expensive.

 

[BarneyL]

Alvandi's lens cones for 4x5 Panoral cost between 340 EUR (45/47mm lens) and 710 EUR (180mm lens). Not exactly cheap, but IMO not yet in 'very rich' territory.

 

[Ian Grant]

The problem with the cameras you list is that they all lack the most important movement most people use which is front tilt.

Ian

 

[BarneyL]

I hope I don't sound like an ad agent for Alvandi, but Panoral actually does have front tilt. Sadly, Cambo does not. I think Silvestri had an accessory that would give some tilt, but not sure about that.

 

[abruzzi]

I was looking at the Arca-Swiss R series a while ago. Not with any intention to buy--just curiosity. They are interesting cameras, but I guess the question is what draws you to these vs a standard LF camera? Some are designed to be used handheld, but if thats the case you're using a viewfinder, and shift/tilt become less usable. If you're putting them on a tripod, what's the benefit over a regular LF camera? weight? Speed of shooting? Or is it just the lack of unused capabilities that make using a full featured camera more complex?

I don't mean these as retorical negative comments, but rather asking you what is the benefit you expect to see? If handheld, and shift is not important, I'd also consider the Sinar Handy if you can find one.

 

[xkaes]

Well said, plus with a lot of wide lenses you don't get that much shift to work with anyway. And since it's hand-held -- just move.

 

[BarneyL]

Mostly weight and size. No issues with getting the standards parallel is a plus. Also scale focusing with a helicoid, combined with a viewfinder that takes shift into account, allows use without the ground glass and dark cloth. At least in theory.

I dunno how it works in practice. Hence I'm asking here.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

My Wista DX weighs 1.5 kilograms, my Horseman Woodman even less. Both allow me to use the full image circle on my Nikkor SW f/8 and my WF Ektar 135mm f/6.3.

You don't have to fiddle with anything unless you want to use it. Set up the camera in "zero" position and go from there. If you need shift, then shift; one control. If you need rise, the rise; two easy-to-deal-with knobs.

Tilts and swings are inherently more complex, but you don't have to use them if you don't want to.

I can buy two really usable lenses on Technika boards for what you're planning to pay for a lens cone. Plus, my kit is lighter, more compact and more versatile.

I don't really understand why you are looking at this type of camera unless, for some reason, opening and setting up a folding field camera is really just too annoying for you. In that case, go for it!

Best,

Doremus

 

[xkaes]

...scale focusing with a helicoid, combined with a viewfinder that takes shift into account, ...

Do any of these camera shift the viewfinder as the lens is shifted? If that's the case you're stuck with one lens, right?

 

[abruzzi]

I think what you'll find is that most people here are shooting LF for those complexities, and actually wouldn't want a camera that eliminates them. So you'll fine many that are somewht disdainful of that helicoid LF cameras. I've seen very little discussion of them here, except maybe a little of the cheapo "travelwide" cameras. Nonetheless--good luck, I hope you find the info you need. There is a somewhat inexpenive chinese-made model on eBay by Dayi. It requires a Toyo back and is ~$600 without the back or lens cone. Lens cones range $300-500. So you could probably put one together for about $1k. I'm curious how any of them account for shift when using a viewfinder though, and if you ae setting up tripod and using the ground glass, some normal LF cameras can probably be setup as quick.

 

[xkaes]

Well I hope Barney does not take our responses as derision or disdain. I read them mostly as explanations or further questions.

 

[abruzzi]

yeah, disdain was the wrong word. I apologize for that, but most of us are enamoured of movements of all kinds so there seems to be few users of these types of cameras.

 

[BarneyL]

I don't know exactly how those viewfinders for shift cameras work. I read something about interchangeable masks for different focal lengths and such, but one of the reasons I ask here, is to maybe learn something from who has experience with such cameras.

I admit that maybe I'm too quick to dismiss folders. It's not like I have used every single one of them. Can't remember the names of those wooden folders that I have experience with, but those were annoying to both set up and focus. Friend has a metal Wista that's pretty solid, but that thing isn't all that lightweight really... maybe it's just me looking for a unicorn though.

In any case. Thank you for your answers.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

... I admit that maybe I'm too quick to dismiss folders. It's not like I have used every single one of them. Can't remember the names of those wooden folders that I have experience with, but those were annoying to both set up and focus. Friend has a metal Wista that's pretty solid, but that thing isn't all that lightweight really... maybe it's just me looking for a unicorn though.

In any case. Thank you for your answers.

Metal folders are generally pretty heavy. I wouldn't carry one in the field just for that reason. Wood folders, on the other hand, can be both fairly full-featured and lightweight. Some are too bare-bones for me (e.g., no lateral shift) and others too large and bulky (e.g., the big Zone VI cameras). Others fit the bill just fine, giving me enough movements to work close quarters in cities using lots of rise coupled with tilts and lateral shift sometimes. There's a "Goldilocks point" for everyone when it comes to this. Maybe yours is a handheld shift camera. It really comes down to how you work and what your tolerance level is for "fiddliness" and set-up time. I don't think, however, that weight would be a real deciding factor between the cameras you are looking at and, say, a Chamonix or Wista folder.

Best,

Doremus

 

[xkaes]

There are definitely two classes of LF cameras -- those designed to be hand-held, and those that ought not to be.

 

[MarkS]

I don't really follow these, but it seems to me that the use for 4x5 shift cameras (Silvestri, Alpa, etc.) was for architecture. Those cameras did seem appealing, back in the '90s, but I would have needed some very deep-pocketed clients to make purchasing one cost-effective. And the number of architecture shooters today who use 4x5 film must be vanishingly small. So from my perspective these are cameras in search of a market... may they continue to find one!

 

[DREW WILEY]

You can get scaled-down 4x5 WA wooden cameras for architectural use which don't fold, but give you the necessary movements. Going nutso in price for a stripped down set of functions doesn't make much sense to me unless you go full bore MF digital capture, and are willing to spend as much overall as for a new car. Even the priciest of these non-folder woodies, like the Ebony version (no longer made, but still being sold), is going to be a bargain by comparison to something like an Arca cube setup.

The logic behind architectural photo careers being married to digital these days is because clients want everything yesterday. They also like to hover over your live view screen like micromanaging vultures. Two reasons I got out of that game, and now only shoot architecture for personal printmaking reasons. But for personal use, or clients who aren't in a big hurry, shooting full 4x5 film is likely to give the highest quality results. And people aren't exactly doing things efficiently when they have to take a dozen shots and stitch them afterwards. Whatever. I always preferred the Sinar monorail system anyway, which can be configured into almost anything as needed.

Handholding something 4X5? - yeah, you've got options for that, including Horseman and Linhof technical cameras and Graflexes. But doing so with rise or shift or other view camera style movements employed, and still being able to compose and focus without a solid tripod? - not very realistic.

If you want an affordable beauty of a rapid deployment metal technical folder suitable for wide-normal to long-normal lenses, take a look at the Horseman FA.

 

[grat]

There's always cameras like the Chroma Snapshot "Technical". The base Snapshot doesn't have shift/rise.

Press cameras such as the B&J, Busch Pressman, Linhof, and of course the Graflex also exist, are reasonably straightforward, and have various combinations of rise/fall/shift and sometimes even a bit of front tilt.

 

[Oren Grad]

FWIW: I own a 4x5 Nagaoka, and also a Cambo Wide 750. From my perspective, the key advantages of the Cambo compared to the Nagaoka are these:

• Faster and easier setup and takedown
• Greater rigidity and more precise parallel alignment
• Greater finesse in focusing
• More rugged overall

The limitation to a single parallel movement at a time - by flipping the lens panel, one can change between rise/fall and shift - with no tilts or swings doesn't bother me, because I very rarely use anything other than rise/fall even with folding cameras.

It's hard to find extra lenses in mount - these days one usually has to buy an entire camera to get additional focal lengths. And each lens + helical + mounting panel with "crash bars" is bulky and heavy, so carrying multiple lenses is less convenient than with a folding camera.

I don't care about viewfinder movements - I use the VF for rough framing only; focusing and final composition is on the ground glass.

Of course, the Nagaoka is featherweight, folds down very small, and handles focal lengths longer than 90mm more readily - the Cambo Wide is really designed for, and is at its best over, the 47-90mm range. Beyond that the cones get unwieldy, shift capability goes away and the available focusing range becomes limited enough to be a problem for close-range work.

Horses for courses: if you see very wide, tend to go out with only a single focal length at a time, and prefer working quickly, a camera like the Cambo Wide can be a great choice. If you need versatility, a bellows camera, either folding or non-folding, would be better.

 

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Here is another example: the incredibly rare Linhof Technar. Wouldn't this be nice in your kit?

 

[DREW WILEY]

Heck, if you just need shift, go with a MF SLR like a Pentax 6X7 equipped with a shift lens. It won't be easy to handhold except with high speed film, and is certainly no substitute for a real view camera, but is another option for doing things quick and portable. And they are rugged.

 

[RJ-]

Hello everyone,

I have recently grown interest in shift cameras, especially those that can use large format film.

During mu research, I found following models that piqued my interest:
- Cambo Wide DS
- Silvestri S4
- Alvandi Panoral (these can be bought new)

Alvandi Panoral line of cameras looks like a great option, especially since it comes in multiple formats....

Both Cambo wide DS and Silvestri S4 allow 40mm of rise, which sounds awesome. Unfortunately these cameras are very hard to come by, especially with lenses in appropriate mounts.

Have you ever used any of these? What are your experiences? Do you know any other camera model of this type that I should consider?

There are a few of us Silvestri camera users - mostly based in Europe like yourself. There are a few comments in this thread where the respondents need correcting

I've used the S4 - and it's anything but handhold friendly. At nearly twice the weight and bulk of the Silvestri Hermes, it was never designed to be swift and light like their ultraslim H models (or even the earlier T30s). The Silvestri H was designed for working photographers, particularly specialising in wide-angle photography: Schneder Kreuznach Super Angulon 47mm XL, 58mm XL and 65mm Angulon or Rodenstock 65/4 which all can be still custom mounted in a Silvestri helicoid bayonet mount. But not the 90 XL. If you have any standard lens, you can still contact the Silvestri factory to mount it correctly.

The comments about +40mm rise extend beyond the available image circles of these lenses for 5x4 inch format. For 6x12 inch and smaller formats, the +40mm rise is useful: most of us Silvestri users find the 6x9cm film back useful for that purpose.

Front tilt is redundant: it is not the most important movement. It is the least important movement for these portable ultrawide shift cameras. For a 47mm XL lens where near everything a metre in front of the photographer is in focus. Silvestri did make an elbow joint type front tilt socket adapter for the 100mm+ focal lengths although I have never used one.

It is similarly not correct to assert that shift cameras only have one movement at a time. The Silvestri Hermes, T30 series and the S4 all have the ease of cross-movements at one swift touch. You cannot do cross-movements on a view camera in less than 5 seconds which the Hermes permits. This combination of vertical shift and lateral displacement is done simply by rotation of the film back relative to the image axis.

With the tendency towards wide angle lenses, the groundglass viewing mechanism becomes slower through dimmness and the struggle to focus particularly on non-specular light sources and night become rapidly apparent. The linked viewfinder of the shift camera is indispensible for rapid composition in the dark. Anyone who has tried to focus a 47mm XL with a Centre ND filter will know how fiddly taking it on and taking it off for focussing is, particularly on the move. Here, you can see the linked viewfinder: the framelines rise in accordance with the shift (bottom right dial) and fall so the composition of the viewfinder matches the groundglass. It is a simple mechanical linkage which allows the various compositional masks to be swapped over. The Silvestri series permits the use of every back that fits the standard 5x4inch Graflok back; 6x12cm panoramic; 6x9cm, 6x7cm, 6x6cm and even Hasselblad A12 backs with the correct adapter.

Lastly, these cameras did not cost a fortune. They are uncommon and the few of us who still use them are mostly in Europe. The cameras paid for themselves after 2 or 3 photo assignments and are extremely well machined and built on a plane parallel military grade bulleted solid aluminium chassis - a real challenge for any folding field camera. Today, they are still cheaper than most of the hobbyist digital cameras which analogue touting keyboard warriors hide behind their analogue ones.

Kind regards

 

[BarneyL]

Thank you for your response, RJ. I appreciate very much that you shared your experiences with Silvestri cameras, especially the part about the linked viewfinder and how it helps shooting ultra wide with a center filter on.

It's great to see that one can still have analog lenses mounted into Silvestri mount. I see that they are still in business with Bicam models and such, but those are obviously made with digital user in mind (and indeed, they are not that expensive compared to options from Cambo, for example). IIRC the Bicam can accept 6x12 film back to use with some lenses, maybe even could have 4x5 back fitted to it somehow - but even if that's true, it's probably not that great experience using it, compared to a model like S4 or Hermes.

 

[RJ-]

Hi,
Yes the Silvestri Bicam is a completely different tool. The S4 shared more analogue friendly features with the lighter weight Hermes (pictured below beside a standard 35mm rangefinder).

As you can see - the width of the Silvestri Hermes is barely wider than a Leica 35mm rangefinder and taller. LF Shift cameras are very different tools from standard 5x4" cameras: 5x4" camera users think they understand dedicated shift cameras without owning and working with them.

The crash bars don't permit the use of centre ND grad filters with the short helicoid turns becoming very awkward and fiddly. The great thing about the shift LF camera is that it disassembles flat into a briefcase for transport and just requires the lens twisted on to get started.

On the RFF forum and LF Photography forum, there are usually one or two users per year who discover Silvestri T30s or Hermes (H25) models. The T30 is worth looking at since it has a top down chassic table turn reversal capacity (so that shift applied +15mm can become -15mm) which is greater than the Silvestri H with a -10mm shift. An external (non-linked rise/fall) viewfinder exists for this T30 model too.


For use of the 6x12cm 120 roll format adapter on Silvestri T30/H/S4 models, there are 2 routes:

Silvestri Body + Lens + Back Spacer [0,1,2,3,4 depending on focal length] onto either:

6x12cm dedicated roll back adapter + 6x12cm viewing fresnel and leather hoodette
.
or

via ring spacer [0,1,2,3,4] + Graflok International 5x4 back + Horseman standard 120 roll film 5x4 back adapter. Mask off the area outside of 6x12cm on the 5x4 inch frame or use the grid lines on the groundglass.

The most compact Silvestri 5x4inch set up is the Hermes with the Back spacer Ring 0 + Schneider Super Angulon XL 47mm f5.6 helicoid mounted. This is a true handholdable street photography solution. In the 20 years of shooting, I've only encountered one other Silvestri user though. I guess that's how unusual and off the radar we are....!