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180mm Rod/SK/ Fuji copal 1 lenses performance

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Joe Kashi

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Do you mean W S, and not NWS. I don't see NWS onebay but i see W S and CM versions as well as W, but not NWS.
You mean this one?
View attachment 387384


I was referring to the NW series. The NW versions are probably the most common of all.

However, Fujinon lens nomenclature is well-known to be inconsistent and confusing, The original W series had the writing on the inside of the lens barrel, on the retaining ring.


These were single-coated Plasmats, with an 80 degree image circle. Later development led to the NW series, of which multiple iterations and updates were all termed NW or NWS, inconsistently. These are identified by the lens information being “written” around the outside of the barrel. These are multicoated lenses and often had all six elements separated into different groups. The angle of coverage was usually about 76 degrees. NWS was sometimes used to designate that the lens was in shutter rather than barrel. I may have used the term too loosely in my prior response.


The CM-W series is the last of the Fujinon wide-angle plasmat series. The changes are usually not significant optically. I have W, NW, and CM-W series Fujinon lenses and, except for slightly different coverage angles, can discern little difference in practical work.

The lens that you show on the Rittreck board is an early series W, single-coated but a very good lens that should cover about 300mm or so.

All are modern, coated lenses, designed with computer assistance, and made to professional standards. Of the earlier W series, the somewhat wider angle of coverage allows lenses as short as 135mm to be used on 5x7, with limited movement.


This is probably the best overall listing of large format Fujinon lenses:


http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/byfl.htm
 

Joe Kashi

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Thanks Joe. Do you have the CM version or just W (of fujinon)?
Didn't know about Ektar being good for macro. The other lenses i mentioned are also good for macro? (As i understand they were not designed for that)

As a clarification, Ektar was a general brand name used by Kodak to designate their higher-tier lenses. It does not designate any specific type or design of lens. To my knowledge, the only post-WW II shutter-mounted Ektar widely sold and intended for general purpose work was the 203/7.7
 
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Allthink

Allthink

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I only have the two 180mm lenses that I mention. 180mm is not very common. These two just came on my way.
I think all 180mm lenses with the same coverage will perform more or less the same. The variation between individual examples will likely be more. The Apo-Rodagon 1:4.8 f=180mm is an enlarger lens. Less coverage. And as mentioned previously in this thread enlarger lenses will do a better job with still live.


View attachment 387399
Image0093.jpg

Hello Gary. Meanwhile i was experimenting with some lenses, bought Mamiya KL 127mm lens and used it for product and for macro(with technical camera cambo actus) and also bought 180mm soft focus from mamiya to try. ALso fuji ex75mm enlaging les(which behaved strange in my test - on open apertures one portion of the image(i think it was bottom) was soft but 3 stops closed down and everything very sharp, even with 2-3x enlargments).

Previously you mentioned that apo rodagon 180mm will outperform apo-sironar s.
I'm currently considering to add 150-180mm lens. Consider trying Mamiya rz 57 150mm KL.
I saw Sinar Sinaron S 180mm F5.6 MC lens. Do you think Apo rodagon 180mm enlarging is still better for still life(shooting products+macro sometimes) than this Sinaron S 180mm? (As i understand it's same as Apo-Sironar-N.
Thanks
 
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Allthink

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The Schneider Kreuznach Apo Symmar MC 180mm f/5.6 is the newest design compared to the Sironar-N and should theoretically be better for general photography - which they were designed for.

But you would be hard pressed to see the difference in real life.

Will Schneider Kreuznach Apo Symmar MC 180mm f/5.6 you mentioned be better than Sinar Sinaron S 180mm F5.6 MC?
 

gary mulder

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I saw Sinar Sinaron S 180mm F5.6 MC lens. Do you think Apo rodagon 180mm enlarging is still better for still life(shooting products+macro sometimes) than this Sinaron S 180mm? (As i understand it's same as Apo-Sironar-N.

The Apo-Sironar-N is not the same als the Apo-Sironar-S. Here is a picture for comparison. Left, Apo-Sironar-S 1:5.6 180mm. Middle Apo-Rodagon 1:4.8 180mm = Right, Sinaron digital 1:4.8 180mm. ( I don’t have a Apo-Sironar-N 180mm )
IMG_0438.jpg
 
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Allthink

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The Apo-Sironar-N is not the same als the Apo-Sironar-S. Here is a picture for comparison. Left, Apo-Sironar-S 1:5.6 180mm. Middle Apo-Rodagon 1:4.8 180mm = Right, Sinaron digital 1:4.8 180mm. ( I don’t have a Apo-Sironar-N 180mm )
View attachment 409837

How Sinaron digital 180mm and apo-rodabon 180mm compare? Does the new version is better? I wonder what mount it has. I do have an option for Leica thread on plates for cambo.
I didn't say Apo-Sironar-N is same as Apo-Sironar-S, but i did say (Sinar) Sinaron S as same as Apo-Sironar-N. Hence i asked if you know how this lens(Sinaron) compares to your Apo-Sironar-S and Apo-Rodagon (180mm)
Thanks Gary
 

John Wiegerink

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The OP wants a 180mm for closeup macro work! I'm surprised nobody here has mentioned the Fujinon 180mm f9 A lens in Copal shutter. I wouldn't try shooting small live critters with it, but it works fine for closeup still lives. Yes, the f9 max aperture is dim for focusing, but I blast my subject with plenty of light just for focusing and then resort to lighting for the shot itself. Super sharp lens for sure. Just a thought, but and may not be what he's looking for, but I love mine.
 

abruzzi

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The OP wants a 180mm for closeup macro work! I'm surprised nobody here has mentioned the Fujinon 180mm f9 A lens in Copal shutter. I wouldn't try shooting small live critters with it, but it works fine for closeup still lives. Yes, the f9 max aperture is dim for focusing, but I blast my subject with plenty of light just for focusing and then resort to lighting for the shot itself. Super sharp lens for sure. Just a thought, but and may not be what he's looking for, but I love mine.

I've never used it for macro but it is the default lens on my light weight 4x5 setup. At macro distance I'm sure it would cover a lot more.

Nikkor also made a few macro lenses, but not a 180 as far as I know. But there is a 120 and a 210
 

John Wiegerink

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I've never used it for macro but it is the default lens on my light weight 4x5 setup. At macro distance I'm sure it would cover a lot more.

Nikkor also made a few macro lenses, but not a 180 as far as I know. But there is a 120 and a 210
Someday I might just try it on my 8X10 view camera to see how it works for macro/closeup work coverage wise.
 

Steve Goldstein

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Nobody has yet mentioned the 180mm f/5.6 Apo Macro Sironar. It’s not the most common or least expensive lens, but it does exactly what the OP wants. It requires 67mm filters. I use mine when doing macro work at home, but in the field I carry a 180mm Fujinon-A.
 

abruzzi

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Someday I might just try it on my 8X10 view camera to see how it works for macro/closeup work coverage wise.

well, it says a 252mm image circle at infinity (and ƒ22), so the image circle should double at 1:1 since its is double the distance from the film. Now 1:1 doesn't feel very macro on 8x10 like it does on 35mm, but anything larger is going to get a larger image circle.

(am I right? I figuring the "math" by supposition, not with a formula and a calculator.)
 

John Wiegerink

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well, it says a 252mm image circle at infinity (and ƒ22), so the image circle should double at 1:1 since its is double the distance from the film. Now 1:1 doesn't feel very macro on 8x10 like it does on 35mm, but anything larger is going to get a larger image circle.

(am I right? I figuring the "math" by supposition, not with a formula and a calculator.)
Sounds pretty right to me. I think that's why Edward Westons "Pepper" looks so nice is that you fill the frame of an 8X10 and then contact print it and you got WOW.
 

mrosenlof

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I have a 180mm f/5.6 Nikkor (-W, I think, it's a 'normal' coverage plasmat). I've only used it for general photography and it's very nice for that. Most macro lenses are optimized for copying flat work, when you photograph three dimensional objects things get less predictable, and less applicable to flat fields. A general purpose 180 is a lot of coverage, on 4x5.
 
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Allthink

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The Apo-Sironar-N is not the same als the Apo-Sironar-S. Here is a picture for comparison. Left, Apo-Sironar-S 1:5.6 180mm. Middle Apo-Rodagon 1:4.8 180mm = Right, Sinaron digital 1:4.8 180mm. ( I don’t have a Apo-Sironar-N 180mm )
View attachment 409837

Hey Gary, i'm interested to hear your thoughts on what i wrote you in reply above. Thank you
 
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Allthink

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Nobody has yet mentioned the 180mm f/5.6 Apo Macro Sironar. It’s not the most common or least expensive lens, but it does exactly what the OP wants. It requires 67mm filters. I use mine when doing macro work at home, but in the field I carry a 180mm Fujinon-A.

Hi Steve. Actually, this lens is in my cart. I see it sells for ~1000$. Interesting how it compares to what Gary mentioned(Apo-Rodagon 1:4.8 180mm , Sinaron digital 1:4.8 180mm) or 2 lenses i mentioned(Mamiya rz67 150/180mm KL and Sinar sinaron S 180mm)
 

gary mulder

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I'm not very focused on maximum sharpness. There is objectively no difference to be found between the Apo-Rodagon and the Sinaron digital. They both have a 58mm threaded mount. The cells do not fit in a copal shutter.
 

DREW WILEY

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Well, since this thread is still ongoing, I should chime in again a little more specifically. Probably the very best 180 for macro and near macro work (but superb clear out to infinity as well, in terms of versatility) would be the Fuji A-series 180/9. Very compact and better corrected than general purpose plasmats. Ample coverage for 5x7 film at infinity, more than most 180 lenses, obviously even more abundant coverage on 4x5 close-up. Generally comes in a no.0 Copal shutter, and is "EBC" multi-coated except in rare early examples with inside lettering. Extreme sharpness. I use a step-up ring on mine to accept 52mm filters. Used it yesterday in dim light; no problem.
 
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Allthink

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I'm not very focused on maximum sharpness. There is objectively no difference to be found between the Apo-Rodagon and the Sinaron digital. They both have a 58mm threaded mount. The cells do not fit in a copal shutter.

Hello Gary. I thought of buying the lens you have (Apo-Rodagon 180mm) but it's diameter is 50mm as i understand, and the lens boards of Cambo actus for copal 0,1 and 3 all are smaller. So i have to drill a bigger hole or there is other better solution?
 

rulnacco

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Thanks Besk. Is it(Sk apo symmar mc) newer design than apo sironar s that Gary have?

I wish there was some list of this ~180mm lens that could sort the lenses in descending order from best ones at the top, the top one being the best in all categories IQ wise, because so many versions were from all the big 4 brands, and sill are but with the digital and only 2 brands now left.

Just for comparison of prices, each next gen. is 2-3 times more $ than previous one, even they are ~ 20 years old.
RODENSTOCK 180MM SIRONAR-N F5.6 - 250$
Rodenstock Apo Sironar N 180mm f/5.6 - 700$
Rodenstock Apo-Sironar-S 180mm - 1800$
SK apo symmar 180 - ~450$
Funinon CM 180mm W - 500$
Fuji Fujinon W S 180mm f/5.6 - 150$
and finally Pentax 67 165mm f/2.8 though not copal.

May I suggest that you just buy the cheapest one? Because, let's be honest: no one in this entire wide world could look at a selection of prints from all of these lenses and tell you with any sort of accuracy which prints came from which lens. Not only that, short of printing up images from any of these four feet or so in width, you probably wouldn't be able to see many or any discernible differences in them--at 8x10 to 16x20 and maybe bigger, you probably wouldn't have a clue which one was "sharpest" or "best". Not only that, what someone might regard as a flaw (too contrasty, not contrasty enough, etc.), someone else may very well hold as a strength. Every single one of those is surely regarded by a whole bunch of people as the best large format lens they've ever used.

Sooooo...buy the cheapest one. And spend the savings on tons of film, which you should then shoot up profligately so you become so good at shooting 4x5 that you might actually need a lens that resolves 5 lp/mm more at f32.

I'm offering this opinion as someone who just bought a 180mm large format lens a few days ago. Which one did I choose? Well, I bought a Schneider Symmar-S. Why did I pick that one? (1) It's for all practical and visible purposes as sharp as any modern LF lens of that focal length. (2) It's got the latest version of the Copal shutter, so I shouldn't have to be fussed about any problems with that for the foreseeable future. (3) And the absolute biggest, number one reason of all: it was only $205 including tax from KEH in bargain condition. Wins! Totally.
 
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DREW WILEY

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The 180 Apo Rodagon is a graphics barrel lens devoid of shutter, sometimes used as an enlarging lens, rarely as a taking lens.

Schneider Symmar S lenses can do an excellent job, but are in fact nowhere near as sharp as certain more modern alternatives. A tiny Fuji 180 A-series lens would blow it out of the water not only in that respect, but in terms of acute color correction, contrast, closeup performance, and even size of its image circle. I'm certainly not saying, don't buy a Symmar S. I used a 210 one of those almost exclusively for 10 years for 4x5 film, and it did a wonderful job. And those truly can be excellent bargains these days. But there are distinctions, based on your priorities.
 
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abruzzi

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I don't want to speak for him, but I believe @Allthink was planning to use this with a digital back in addition to film, so the resolving power of the lens is usually more critical given the smaller size of the sensor (44x33mm at the smallest, and 53.9x40.4mm at the largest depending on which back is used.)
 

djdister

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I've got two 180mm Fujinon W lenses - one with the inner lettering and one with outer lettering (does that make one an innie and one an outie?) and they are great lenses. I haven't used them for macro work, but it would be an easier start for you rather than worrying about the perfect lens and spending too much at the outset.
 

xkaes

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While the Fujinon A 180mm f9 is a super lens -- I have one -- it's expensive, so it depends on your wallet. I also have a Fujinon NW 180mm f5.6 -- which I use for most photos because of its brighter aperture. I use the A 180mm for close-up work (and backpacking -- because it's so small and light).
 
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John Wiegerink

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While the Fujinon A 180mm f9 is a super lens -- I have one -- it's expensive, so it depends on your wallet. I also have a Fujinon NW 180mm f5.6 -- which I use for most photos because of its brighter aperture. I use the A 180mm for close-up work (and backpacking -- because it's so small and light).
The Fujinon A 180mm f9 was/is slightly more expensive, but to me it's worth it. It was one of my better large format lens purchases for sure. It works very nicely with my Chamonix 4X5 camera. The lens is very small and light, which makes my Chamonix 4X5 very happy. While the Chamonix is a great, well built camera it doesn't like heavy glass hung on its front end.
 
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