Let's Talk About Spending a Lot of Money on Lab Equipment with the Aim of Retiring in 25 Years.

[Mr Bill]

Very interested in this thread.

I have always thought D+D is the most elegant.

Ahhh, that's probably because you never saw or dealt with so-called cine processors. Granted, they are limited to certain sorts of usage, not suited to being started and stopped frequently, nor for different sizes of film, etc. But when one has large quantities of roll films for a certain process and in a specific width there's nothing else to compare.

I was gonna describe something of the design and its elegance, but it just gets too wordy, not to mention off topic. So here's just a couple of paragraphs. Let me just say that if one wants every inch of all of their film to be precisely processed, easily within 1/4 second of the spec time, and well and consistently agitated, and near as pristine as can be, a properly set up and operated cine machine can do this.

Cine machines operate with a continuous web of film, so all must be spliced together ahead of time onto reels of substantial film length, perhaps one or two thousand feet. At the end of a processing run a special leader is spliced to the end so that the machine always remains strung. So in operation the machine is "started up" by splicing a fresh reel to the pre-strung leader and starting it. Each new reel is spliced in as needed, to be replaced by leader at the end of the processing run.

Much of the elegance has to do with the film tension control as well as with the film emulsion barely touching anything. It uses a spiral wind around the upper and lower spools on each rack, but with emulsion facing out, so only the base side of the film touches the spools. And then only near the edges of the dished spools.

But again, this is off topic here... this is not something a normal sort of smallish lab would use.
.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

View attachment 411315

Thank you for sharing this! I actually love finding pieces of history like this. I think I should really start referring to my shop as a 'plant'.

 

[mshchem]

Thank you for sharing this! I actually love finding pieces of history like this. I think I should really start referring to my shop as a 'plant'.

Absolutely. To confuse the neighbors put up a sign, plant #3. Get the locals to pay for new equipment if they want to keep the jobs

 

[Mr Bill]

Absolutely. To confuse the neighbors put up a sign, plant #3. Get the locals to pay for new equipment if they want to keep the jobs

Ha ha, yes! AND... at your rear exit door put up a sign, "Main Plant - Authorized Employees only!"

 

[images39]

In fact, this art form that we call 'photography' I do believe will revert to being primarily an analog medium. Very soon you'll probably be able to AI generate every product shot, on-model clothing shot, and even architectural image. I can honestly even imagine AI being able to generate the 'perfect' set of wedding photos based on all the phone pics taken that day. We're already seeing computational photography in every smart phone image...we're probably not that far from a world where you take a selfie and the AI 'perfects' it. So if you're a 'photographer' or seeking out 'photography', you're probably going to be looking for in images primarily made in a camera that have some separation from 'big tech'. We're planning on being there to service that future. I realize that this is unprovable thought experimentation but when you get into owning a lab, you are a true believer.

I don't have much to contribute regarding processing equipment (other than to say that my best results with black & white lab processing have been with dip and dunk using XTOL)... but I wanted to comment that I appreciated the above statement, and your vision on this. I think it's thought-provoking and relevant.

Thanks,
Dale

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

Welp, I got the dimensions of the Roboline Dip and Dunk processor. I'm not sure it's going to work in our space without major modifications. The unit height is 9.5', and we have a drop ceiling that is at 8'. Above that drop ceiling is unfortunately simply a now defunct air duct (the building installed mini splits), and electrical wiring for the fluorescent lights. Not sure I could convince the building to let me rip all of that out.

It's a bummer because I was starting to get excited about having a real state of the art processor. It also measures a little over 12' in length and we'd have to build in the darkroom for loading. The advantage of the 'daylight load' lid for the RT machines is a pretty big practical one.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

Our building manager seems to be open to removing the drop ceiling in our space, which would recover the ceiling height to 9' 8", just enough to be above the height of the Roboline. It's still not a huge space but it's workable.

Today I pulled out all the racks in our COLEX and scrubbed everything down. These things are so heavy...hoping this is the last time.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

Colenta just informed me that they're doing a slight re-design of the Roboline which will reduce its hight by 15cm. Things are looking like 2026 will be the year of D&D!

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

Update:

We officially ordered the 4 track, 30cm C41 processor and the 3 track, 20cm B&W machine. Both RT. Ultimately the significant modifications to our space and future training, operational challenges of running a D&D scared me off. I understand roller transport processors, as does my staff. It's pretty flawless for 99% of roll film applications, and you don't have density differences between the top and bottom of the roll. For sheet film, Colenta sold us some dedicated crossover racks that are specifically designed for large format.

That was one big honking check to write!

Delivery in 60 days roughly.

 

[koraks]

Woot-woot!

That was one big honking check to write!

Sweaty hands, no doubt, haha!

What do you expect the payback period would be, approximately?

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

We got a nice long term but will hopefully pay it off within 7 years or so.

 

[ic-racer]

Will you be offering 16mm b&w reversal processing?

 

[Carnie Bob]

We got a nice long term but will hopefully pay it off within 7 years or so.

I think with the right marketing on all the social platforms, you will be ok, Here in Toronto there are 3 very much thriving film print services for consumer level clients. Good Luck it takes guts to invest in oneself these days and I hope it pays off for you. I am about to invest with a young assistant partner in equipment that will help her continue my company Silvershack for another 30 years , I probably will not see it to fruition but am happy to invest in equipment that is right for us.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

Will you be offering 16mm b&w reversal processing?

No we don't handle any cine formats. I'm guessing I could run the new AHU films through the C41 processor but I'd be a little worried about the film drifting and getting caught up in the gearing. And we have no way to scan it.

 

[wiltw]

There will always be people who want to use sails instead of an outboard, a turntable instead of Spotify, a horse instead of an ATV, or a film camera instead of digital. Plus I believe AI will push even more people toward analog artistry. Analog was said to be a on the way out 20 years ago, then it was a fad 10 years ago, and here we are...even after massive price spikes people are still reaching for HP5+ or Portra.

Wind does not disappear forever. Vinyl records will not suddently vanish. But events of the past years have demonstrated how essential items to the continuance of the darkroom process are disappearing from the scene.

• For many years I kept my Beseler 45V-XL enlarger although I could no longer buy Ilfochrome (a.k.a. Cibachrome) chemistry and paper, but
• in recent years Kodak decided to discontinue cut sheets of RA-4 papaer, too...I saw the handwriting on the wall, after many years of continuing to turn a blind eye to
• the disappearance of many of my favorite color film emulsions as well as
• the non-availability of emulsions in what had once become my favorite format (roll film).
  
  ...and I stopped doing any B&W work in the darkroom 5 decades ago, so there is little reason to pretend to keep my own darkroom alive, it was being strangled by external forces...I sold off the Beseler 45V-XL finally

The photographic lab might need to evolve in order to survive, but with regard to major investments of capital to keep the traditional forms alive...?! (Kodachrome process disappeared and even the die hard Kodachrome lab disappeared in spite of investment. Labs dedicated to Cibachrome disappeared, too. Pro grade E-6 processing is disappearing, too.) One needs to think hard about fighting too-strong headwinds for too long, it is a personal decision.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

Wind does not disappear forever. Vinyl records will not suddently vanish. But events of the past years have demonstrated how essential items to the continuance of the darkroom process are disappearing from the scene.

• For many years I kept my Beseler 45V-XL enlarger although I could no longer buy Ilfochrome (a.k.a. Cibachrome) chemistry and paper, but
• in recent years Kodak decided to discontinue cut sheets of RA-4 papaer, too...I saw the handwriting on the wall, after many years of continuing to turn a blind eye to
• the disappearance of many of my favorite color film emulsions as well as
• the non-availability of emulsions in what had once become my favorite format (roll film).
  
  ...and I stopped doing any B&W work in the darkroom 5 decades ago, so there is little reason to pretend to keep my own darkroom alive, it was being strangled by external forces...I sold off the Beseler 45V-XL finally

The photographic lab might need to evolve in order to survive, but with regard to major investments of capital to keep the traditional forms alive...?! (Kodachrome process disappeared and even the die hard Kodachrome lab disappeared in spite of investment. Labs dedicated to Cibachrome disappeared, too. Pro grade E-6 processing is disappearing, too.) One needs to think hard about fighting too-strong headwinds for too long, it is a personal decision.

Well if your broader point is that the business model of labs needs to adapt to stay relevant, I would argue that this has already happened. In fact it's an everything old is new again type of model. What we do is the original Eastman Kodak "You push the button, we do the rest" model. Customers shoot a roll, they send it in, high res scans of every single frame on the roll are made, customer gets a gallery in their email where they can download files. We are also making quite a lot of 4x6 prints, but it's certainly an afterthought add-on to the scans.

Kodachrome was never going to survive in the face of E6 and C41. I too lament the loss of a remarkably stable color material but if we're being honest, it was an artifact of another era. Your Bessler was absolutely still viable for B&W printing and even RA4 paper has not disappeared. There are a LOT of labs that use RA4 materials so I imagine they'll be around for a long time. That being said, even I, an analog purist, has to admit that the current generation of pigment inkjet is hard to argue with. We use a Canon Pro-1100 and the prints are incredible, on papers RA4 could never touch for quality.

I don't have a lot of time for real darkroom printing these days but I won't sell my enlargers. Silver printing is here to stay and a worthy medium. RA4? I hate to say it but propping up a paper that will fade in a few decades is not really a hill I'm dying on.

That being said I'd love to see a direct positive color material come back. It would be amazing for in camera usage. Or if someone wants to go hog wild and solve the longevity issue. A good darkroom print still gives the best pigment inkjet a run for it's money.

 

[Ardpatrick]

Well if your broader point is that the business model of labs needs to adapt to stay relevant, I would argue that this has already happened. In fact it's an everything old is new again type of model. What we do is the original Eastman Kodak "You push the button, we do the rest" model. Customers shoot a roll, they send it in, high res scans of every single frame on the roll are made, customer gets a gallery in their email where they can download files. We are also making quite a lot of 4x6 prints, but it's certainly an afterthought add-on to the scans.

Kodachrome was never going to survive in the face of E6 and C41. I too lament the loss of a remarkably stable color material but if we're being honest, it was an artifact of another era. Your Bessler was absolutely still viable for B&W printing and even RA4 paper has not disappeared. There are a LOT of labs that use RA4 materials so I imagine they'll be around for a long time. That being said, even I, an analog purist, has to admit that the current generation of pigment inkjet is hard to argue with. We use a Canon Pro-1100 and the prints are incredible, on papers RA4 could never touch for quality.

I don't have a lot of time for real darkroom printing these days but I won't sell my enlargers. Silver printing is here to stay and a worthy medium. RA4? I hate to say it but propping up a paper that will fade in a few decades is not really a hill I'm dying on.

That being said I'd love to see a direct positive color material come back. It would be amazing for in camera usage. Or if someone wants to go hog wild and solve the longevity issue. A good darkroom print still gives the best pigment inkjet a run for it's money.

Spot on!

There is a significant and at this point sustained interest from a younger generation in film shooting. The evidence is all around. But it’s a different model to the older industrial configuration with big commercial labs etc. I think it’s brilliant that you’re pushing ahead with this.

I just packed up my photo studio & darkroom into a 40ft storage container, for the foreseeable. I lost my space. It’s a time of reflection on what I need going forward, and what is sustainable. But I have no doubt that film, and silver printing at least, ain’t going anywhere.

 

[mshchem]

Well if your broader point is that the business model of labs needs to adapt to stay relevant, I would argue that this has already happened. In fact it's an everything old is new again type of model. What we do is the original Eastman Kodak "You push the button, we do the rest" model. Customers shoot a roll, they send it in, high res scans of every single frame on the roll are made, customer gets a gallery in their email where they can download files. We are also making quite a lot of 4x6 prints, but it's certainly an afterthought add-on to the scans.

Kodachrome was never going to survive in the face of E6 and C41. I too lament the loss of a remarkably stable color material but if we're being honest, it was an artifact of another era. Your Bessler was absolutely still viable for B&W printing and even RA4 paper has not disappeared. There are a LOT of labs that use RA4 materials so I imagine they'll be around for a long time. That being said, even I, an analog purist, has to admit that the current generation of pigment inkjet is hard to argue with. We use a Canon Pro-1100 and the prints are incredible, on papers RA4 could never touch for quality.

I don't have a lot of time for real darkroom printing these days but I won't sell my enlargers. Silver printing is here to stay and a worthy medium. RA4? I hate to say it but propping up a paper that will fade in a few decades is not really a hill I'm dying on.

That being said I'd love to see a direct positive color material come back. It would be amazing for in camera usage. Or if someone wants to go hog wild and solve the longevity issue. A good darkroom print still gives the best pigment inkjet a run for it's money.

Kodachrome died when home movies went to tape. Film is going to be solid for the near future, it's very comforting to use. Need more inexpensive p&s cameras.

 

[isaac7]

Spot on!

There is a significant and at this point sustained interest from a younger generation in film shooting. The evidence is all around. But it’s a different model to the older industrial configuration with big commercial labs etc. I think it’s brilliant that you’re pushing ahead with this.

I just packed up my photo studio & darkroom into a 40ft storage container, for the foreseeable. I lost my space. It’s a time of reflection on what I need going forward, and what is sustainable. But I have no doubt that film, and silver printing at least, ain’t going anywhere.

The most expensive part of photography can be the spaces needed to do it! I dearly miss my college lighting studio and darkrooms. These days space constraints mean doing B&W reversal would be a challenge for me let alone printing.

I also do not miss RA-4 materials and workflows. I never felt that I could get the colors I wanted from them. Cibachromes were beautiful but my brief foray into them showed me I was out of my depth from a technique perspective. It was obvious I would have to either revamp the way I shot my slides to tame the contrast and/or use contrast masks in the darkroom. As mentioned, RA-4 just doesn’t have the archival properties either. It’s my impression that RA-4 was made specifically for use on a mass scale and designed with speed in mind. Growing up in the 80s both Cibas and of course dye transfer were considered to be the superior methods for color printing but they could not be automated.

Printing with ink goes back a long time and inkjet printers have just made them a lot easier I have seen some amazing work done with them. My dream is to have a few of my favorite color images done with multi color carbon prints.

To get back on topic, printing was once the mainstay of lab work but is now decidedly a niche thing. Ink jet is bound to be the way to go for commercial labs.

 

[arespencer]

Well if your broader point is that the business model of labs needs to adapt to stay relevant, I would argue that this has already happened. In fact it's an everything old is new again type of model. What we do is the original Eastman Kodak "You push the button, we do the rest" model. Customers shoot a roll, they send it in, high res scans of every single frame on the roll are made, customer gets a gallery in their email where they can download files. We are also making quite a lot of 4x6 prints, but it's certainly an afterthought add-on to the scans.

Kodachrome was never going to survive in the face of E6 and C41. I too lament the loss of a remarkably stable color material but if we're being honest, it was an artifact of another era. Your Bessler was absolutely still viable for B&W printing and even RA4 paper has not disappeared. There are a LOT of labs that use RA4 materials so I imagine they'll be around for a long time. That being said, even I, an analog purist, has to admit that the current generation of pigment inkjet is hard to argue with. We use a Canon Pro-1100 and the prints are incredible, on papers RA4 could never touch for quality.

I don't have a lot of time for real darkroom printing these days but I won't sell my enlargers. Silver printing is here to stay and a worthy medium. RA4? I hate to say it but propping up a paper that will fade in a few decades is not really a hill I'm dying on.

That being said I'd love to see a direct positive color material come back. It would be amazing for in camera usage. Or if someone wants to go hog wild and solve the longevity issue. A good darkroom print still gives the best pigment inkjet a run for it's money.

Reading this as I’m researching investing in a colenta ecoline 56 processor lol. I’ve been heavily looking into growing my darkroom into a community/rental darkroom.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

Reading this as I’m researching investing in a colenta ecoline 56 processor lol. I’ve been heavily looking into growing my darkroom into a community/rental darkroom.

If you're in a spot where people can utilize the machine, I wouldn't talk you out of it. RA4 will be around for a long time. But you may need to invest in a good paper cutting system from rolls. We are in a very rural area so it would not make sense to offer a rental darkroom. I've thought about it! Wish I could, but the space we're in limits what we can do.

 

[mshchem]

Reading this as I’m researching investing in a colenta ecoline 56 processor lol. I’ve been heavily looking into growing my darkroom into a community/rental darkroom.

Are you dedicated to making large optical prints?

If not I would try to find a RA4 minilab printer processor that will handle up to 11" paper.

Maybe use Jobo for the big prints.

Handling paper in rolls and breaking it down is going to be never ending if you want the professional paper.
Go to the bank tell them you're working on a DATA CENTRE. then order one of these

Chromira 5x ProLab

Chromira™ 5x ProLab offers a small solution for premier quality, high production, maximum versatility and easy order management. It's a fully integrated, professional 30 digital printer/processor lab system that automatically nests, sorts, back-prints, cuts, and collates package orders of small...

www.zbe.com

 

[arespencer]

If you're in a spot where people can utilize the machine, I wouldn't talk you out of it. RA4 will be around for a long time. But you may need to invest in a good paper cutting system from rolls. We are in a very rural area so it would not make sense to offer a rental darkroom. I've thought about it! Wish I could, but the space we're in limits what we can do.

I’m in Orange County California and was using a rental darkroom in LA before setting up my own darkroom at home developing in jobo drums. Last year I spent $3,000 on rental darkroom time. So my own career would almost pay it off over time, there’s a few darkrooms in LA but nothing down here so I feel like it could have enough interest from people around here, enough to at least pay for its self to support me having a solid darkroom.

Are you dedicated to making large optical prints?

If not I would try to find a RA4 minilab printer processor that will handle up to 11" paper.

Maybe use Jobo for the big prints.

Handling paper in rolls and breaking it down is going to be never ending if you want the professional paper.
Go to the bank tell them you're working on a DATA CENTRE. then order one of these

Chromira 5x ProLab

Chromira™ 5x ProLab offers a small solution for premier quality, high production, maximum versatility and easy order management. It's a fully integrated, professional 30 digital printer/processor lab system that automatically nests, sorts, back-prints, cuts, and collates package orders of small...

www.zbe.com

Yep my main/only need is processing 10x12 and 11x14 prints from optical enlargers. The small colenta machine would be plenty of size since it does up to 20” or something around there. I can’t imagine needing to print larger than that for my or anyone in my areas needs who would be renting the space.

How would a minimal printer be a better option? Can those accept sheets of paper being fed?

As for paper I myself buy cut sheets of DPii and and there’s people in LA now selling cut sheets of DPii so I would just source it from them now as well as using crystal archive 11x14 and 8x10 sheets. I could see my self eventually getting DPii rolls in and cutting them down manually after building a rig to support it. Depending on demand I would maybe abandon that or find another solution.

 

[koraks]

Can those accept sheets of paper being fed?

No, minilabs take rolls. They're really not an option for your use case.

 

[mshchem]

How much money are the 22 inch Colenta machines new??