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[Ideas for a curriculum for camera technicians] DIY is one thing, but shouldn't we support professional repair technicians just as much?

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In a highly optimistic, enthusiastic, and confident scenario, we might be able to create an unofficial self-directed training program for camera technicians right here at PHOTRIO. In the tradition of NatCam.

You mentioned the NatCam Curriculum. You are always one who praises the knowledge of our forefathers in camera repair. Therefore, I was wondering what you think is lacking in the curriculum (I haven't looked into it yet):
  • Is it because it's not public domain but hidden behind a paywall (currently ~$90)?
  • Is it because it's not detailed enough?
  • Is it because it's not structured in a way that helps to "digest" it (means, lacks didactics)?
  • Are there new technologies/tools/procedures that were not covered back then?
In my experience, it is always a good idea to analyze the shortcomings of the predecessor solutions before starting to create a new one. Can save a lot of effort.

Another question: If you want to publish a training program in a forum, how do you ensure that the topic isn't unraveled in endless discussions, resulting in huge threads noone wants to read completely? In other words: Who will be responsible for curation of the program ("editor-in-chief") and who should be allowed to add/enhance/edit its content? Not a simple decision, see Wikipedia edit wars.
 
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I interpreted the term curriculum in the sense as it's commonly used in an educational setting. How do youdefine it in this context?
An overview of what’s needed to repair cameras, where to find those supplies, and how to organize the self-learning process. In my view, that’s all we can offer in this format. We’re unable to organize in-person events, and I don’t know anyone here who could serve as an instructor.

I honestly don't know. I see people reflect on various aspects of photography from a variety of angles and fields of experience. But the specific issues I highlighted w.r.t. architectural / conceptual descriptions, I have not seen many examples of on the forum, so I don't know whether someone here is capable of it. Yet, I believe it would be the most essential aspect of the content.

Once we know what this curriculum should include, we can start looking. I think there is knowledge here on every topic that can be tapped into.

Taking those first steps is a good start. A project like this takes time; ideas need to be incorporated, and discussions need to be held. This public process alone is inspiring.

For electromechanical SLRs, I’d like to refer you to the how-to guides I’ve already created, which are designed specifically for this self-study concept.

But that’s just my personal view. I wouldn’t start the work until we have a consensus on the goal.

I’ll wait and see what happens. I can’t do this alone, but I can propose the basic framework for a first discussion:
  1. What do we want, and why?
  2. In what form can it be implemented?
  3. What sources/resources are available?
  4. Who would like to participate offering what?
  5. Discussion
  6. First draft
  7. Discussion
 
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My suggestion is that we gather everything related to this topic first. Then we’ll see what we want to and can do next.

Since the discussion has already started here, I won’t create a new thread; I’ll just change the title.

I’m curious to see what happens!
 
You mentioned the NatCam Curriculum. You are always one who praises the knowledge of our forefathers in camera repair. Therefore, I was wondering what you think is lacking in the curriculum (I haven't looked into it yet):
  • Is it because it's not public domain but hidden behind a paywall (currently ~$90)?
  • Is it because it's not detailed enough?
  • Is it because it's not structured in a way that helps to "digest" it (means, lacks didactics)?
  • Are there new technologies/tools/procedures that were not covered back then?
In my experience, it is always a good idea to analyze the shortcomings of the predecessor solutions before starting to create a new one. Can save a lot of effort.

Another question: If you want to publish a training program in a forum, how do you ensure that the topic isn't unraveled in endless discussions, resulting in huge threads noone wants to read completely? In other words: Who will be responsible for curation of the program ("editor-in-chief") and who should be allowed to add/enhance/edit its content? Not a simple decision, see Wikipedia edit wars.

Good points. I suggest you don't have this discussion with me, but instead make specific suggestions right away on how this can be implemented better, differently, or in a way that suits you.

This isn't about me; it's just about the topic and the ideas surrounding it.
 
Good points. I suggest you don't have this discussion with me, but instead make specific suggestions right away on how this can be implemented better, differently, or in a way that suits you.

This isn't about me; it's just about the topic and the ideas surrounding it.

Sorry, I have to disagree about that. Since you know the NatCam Curriculum and you suggest to write a completely new training program from scratch, you should also explain the Why, not just the What. I cannot do this because I neither know the NatCam Curriculum nor other training programs and can, therefore, not assess whether it makes sense to put time and resources into this endeavour. Sorry to be the 11th man.
 
In other words:

Anyone who wants to contribute should start laying the very first bricks for the building we’re going to construct. If the discussion reveals that a brick should be laid differently or not at all, that’s already part of our collaborative effort.

What I won’t do is pull the project cart for everyone. I’ll wait to see what the discussion yields, and if there’s a consensus on the work, we can figure out who should do what. I’ve already made it clear that I’ll be the first to take action and strive for a result. But it only makes sense to do this together.
 
Sorry, I have to disagree about that. Since you know the NatCam Curriculum and you suggest to write a completely new training program from scratch, you should also explain the Why, not just the What. I cannot do this because I neither know the NatCam Curriculum nor other training programs and can, therefore, not assess whether it makes sense to put time and resources into this endeavour. Sorry to be the 11th man.

Then get your hands on the NatCam materials and see for yourself. Take the initiative, make suggestions, and don’t worry about me personally.

I don’t know all the NatCam guides, but I’ve put together a list here of what the NatCam curriculum, as far as I know, includes.


If you conclude that everything has already been covered there, that's great—then we'll save ourselves the trouble. NatCam covers the period up to the early 1980s, but it can't account for the problems that arose later due to aging.
 
What do we want, and why?

I'd make that a little more concrete or perhaps preface it with a couple of questions:
1: What do you want people to learn (knowledge) / acquire (skill, competence, ability) through this curriculum/repository?
2: What level of prerequisite knowledge (in which fields/areas) will you assume?
At that point you can start asking questions about what you'd need to offer and in which format.

As to a 'curriculum' - in my view the essence of a curriculum is the journey aspect. I.e. it guides a person through their journey of acquiring knowledge, skill, competence etc. What we have so far and what you've contributed to especially is a (very useful!) repository of documented explorations in various cameras. To me, a repository of things is different from a curriculum. If the intent is to make people learn, I believe you need to think not just about what you'll offer, but also how they will walk through the process of acquiring knowledge & competence.

Back to the questions I asked: If I simply things quite dramatically, I think when it comes to camera repair you end up for question (1) that you primarily want to teach people something that's relevant specifically to camera repairs. That breaks down into, again roughly speaking, a number of things:
A: Theoretical knowledge within the relevant domains; mechanics, electronics, control systems, perhaps a little firmware
B: Practical skill in assembly, disassembly, documenting, tracking down & analyzing defects
C: Knowledge of common concepts used in camera systems to fulfill the basic functions of a camera
A and B are not camera-specific. They occur in many places in the broader field we vaguely refer to by the umbrella term 'engineering'. Consequently, there are plenty of places, methods and ways to acquire both knowledge and competence. People can learn in formal education, they can self-study using books or online resources like YouTube videos, and they can engage in experiential learning where they basically just try things out and try to make sense of what happens.

The added value of your curriculum/repository w.r.t. A + B could be mostly, in my view, in suggesting resources and methods. You've been doing this to an extent, but for the journey aspect (see above), I feel more/different structure would be beneficial. It's now kind of left to chance whether someone will hit upon what they need. This also brings into view the inherent limitations of a forum/message board as the platform to host a proper curriculum. It's just not very suitable to the task.

My observation is also that for A and B, there's not really much need to organize much apart from perhaps an index/key to find useful resources. This implies that the answer to question (2) is that you'd best serve people with a certain level of engineering knowledge and competence, and if they lack this, they'd do well to catch up on their deficiencies with the means already (externally) available.

This leaves C, for which three approaches come to mind:
C1: Document tear-downs, explorations and (attempted) repairs by means of examples. You've been doing this, with gusto. It's very useful, but also here, the question of structure/guidance comes into view if you think about a curriculum. This seems to work mostly (and quite well indeed) for the scenario where someone is working on a particular type of camera and a tear-down report of that particular model happens to be available and is found through e.g. online search.
C2: Formal repair manuals, either brand-supplied or 3rd party. You regularly link to these; again, they're insanely useful. They serve a similar purpose as C1 and are mostly relevant if there's a perfect fit between the job at hand and the documentation available. The availability of these is also kind of exogenous; we're not really in a position to re-create these repair/service manuals. At least not presently.
C3: More general/conceptual descriptions in a structured manner, that give insight into how different functions and subsystems work and what particular solutions are encountered in the field. I am not aware of anything (let alone, anything good) in this area, but it would IMO bridge the gap between having a decent engineering background and being a proficient camera repairman. It's the kind of knowledge and documentation that will guide someone with the needed skills in an efficient manner through a diagnosis and repair process.
C1 and C2 are fairly decently covered, and increasingly so through your efforts, but at the same time they're also problematic because - well, it just never ends. There's always another camera model that's just slightly different from all the other ones, so it needs to be documented separately. This challenge is probably just never done. The stop-gap measure would be C3, which could potentially make a skilled repair person less dependent on specific documentation. Moreover, if such documentation is present, something like C3 will make it easier to locate whatever documentation is available, since it's more clear what is sought after, and it also makes it more feasible to e.g. extrapolate/abduct documentation from one model onto another. Hence my emphasis on this category, as I think this is where a real difference could potentially be made.

So, in summary, if we talk about a curriculum as such, I'd expect that it would do the following:
* Make explicit what kind of background knowledge is required for the curriculum to work for any given person.
* Provide insight into what's available to fill deficiencies in this background knowledge (and skill).
* Give guidance in the learning process; i.e. offer some kind of navigational aids so someone can 'walk through' the process in such a way that they have a decent chance of making good sense of whatever content is provided to them.
* Provide the content that is relevant to the essence of the curriculum; i.e. that concretely helps meeting the learning objectives.

A repository of documented repairs etc. can definitely be part of that last bullet and lacking the other elements of a real curriculum, I'd find it very useful if continued expansion of that part would occur. This, combined with the limitations of a forum as a didactic environment, also makes me wonder whether the question of the curriculum is really the one to focus on, or whether it's perhaps already plenty good enough (and more than that!) to "just" continue what you've already been doing.
 
if there’s a consensus on the work
I think the requirement of consensus does not mesh well with the reality of what a discussion forum is, and how it works. By nature of the beast, a forum tends to work well for making differences in viewpoints explicit. It's just not a "consensus-making machine."
 
Then get your hands on the NatCam materials and see for yourself. Take the initiative, make suggestions, and don’t worry about me personally.
This does not work for me. If you want to bring together a group of enthusiasts for a common, time-consuming, non-profit task, you have to motivate them. It doesn't help to ask them to find out just for themselves that the task is worth it. Definitely, I will not spend $90 to get the "old" curriculum to convince myself that it is necessary to write a "new" curriculum and that I have to spend my time on it. Therefore, I will skip this endeavour (not that this would be a great loss 😉). Wish you all the best.
 
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I think the requirement of consensus does not mesh well with the reality of what a discussion forum is, and how it works. By nature of the beast, a forum tends to work well for making differences in viewpoints explicit. It's just not a "consensus-making machine."

That would mean carrying out a project like this
on our own, and I don’t think that’s a good idea.

Those who agree will participate; those who don’t agree won’t contribute their expertise.

If one person makes all the decisions alone, it will only lead to conflict, and a project like this cannot thrive on such a foundation. On the contrary, we should draw on the expertise of as many colleagues as possible.

But the discussion is already underway. That shows there is interest.
 
This does not work for me. If you want to bring together a group of enthusiasts for a common, time-consuming, non-profit task, you have to motivate them. It doesn't help to ask them to find out just for themselve that the task is worth it. Definitely, I will not spend $90 the get the "old" curriculum to convince myself that it is necessary to write a "new" curriculum and that I have to spend my time on it. Therefore, I will skip this endeavour (not that this would be a great loss 😉). Wish you all the best.

It's your decision. By the way, I've already paid the $90 out of my own pocket.

Once again, this isn't about me or what I want, but about the cause. And that cause thrives on people who take the initiative. Just like everything else here on the forum.
 
That would mean carrying out a project like this
That sounds a bit like jumping to conclusions. Let's break it down.

Is consensus needed to get started? I don't think so. Even if you want to work as a team (with team size being defined as n>=2), you still don't need consensus. You just need to find at least one other person who's willing to contribute something that's complementary to what you're bringing to the table.

Is the forum the platform you need to carry this endeavor? I doubt it. And in fact - I think it isn't. It can be a great place to generate interest, to collect ideas, to update people on progress, to disseminate results and to enlist help. But as a platform for creating the curriculum or even for hosting it, I think it has some severe limitations that just come with the territory.

If one person makes all the decisions alone, it will only lead to conflict, and a project like this cannot thrive on such a foundation.
There's always a challenge in terms of decision-making and control, with distributed decision-making on one hand and centralized power on the other. There's something to be said for every configuration. It can even vary across time. Btw, look at SpaceX.
 
What I suggest is that we wait and see how the discussion unfolds here without getting involved further. Then we’ll see how the community feels about it. And we can decide what to do from there.

In any case, I want to offer something meaningful. And I already have an idea of what that might be.

But first, I'd like to see what others think. Experts in their field.
 
That sounds a bit like jumping to conclusions. Let's break it down.

Is consensus needed to get started? I don't think so. Even if you want to work as a team (with team size being defined as n>=2), you still don't need consensus. You just need to find at least one other person who's willing to contribute something that's complementary to what you're bringing to the table.

Is the forum the platform you need to carry this endeavor? I doubt it. And in fact - I think it isn't. It can be a great place to generate interest, to collect ideas, to update people on progress, to disseminate results and to enlist help. But as a platform for creating the curriculum or even for hosting it, I think it has some severe limitations that just come with the territory.


There's always a challenge in terms of decision-making and control, with distributed decision-making on one hand and centralized power on the other. There's something to be said for every configuration. It can even vary across time. Btw, look at SpaceX.

Yes, and whoever comes up with the idea should also lead the effort.

But first, I’ll wait to see what ideas come up.

I’ll then summarize them and propose a plan of action.

But again, this requires the initiative of everyone who’s interested. I’ve already had enough of a monologue here in the forum. The more concrete the ideas, the more fruitful the outcome.

Who knows what other good ideas might come up? Including regarding the format. Does it all have to be just text and images again? And are there already training programs from other technical disciplines that are pedagogically interesting?

I’ll check back in this evening (CET) and am curious to see how this develops.
 
C3: More general/conceptual descriptions in a structured manner, that give insight into how different functions and subsystems work and what particular solutions are encountered in the field. I am not aware of anything (let alone, anything good) in this area, but it would IMO bridge the gap between having a decent engineering background and being a proficient camera repairman. It's the kind of knowledge and documentation that will guide someone with the needed skills in an efficient manner through a diagnosis and repair process.

Yes, I think that’s important. For example, optics (basic lens design, fundamentals of optics), the fundamentals of precision mechanics and electronics, as well as common components.

We have quite a bit of material on that, as far as I can tell. Definitely external documents, but also discussions with colleagues. But I haven’t looked into it yet.
 
Hm, okay, I see I've not succeeded yet in explaining what I mean. I might give it another go at a later moment.

Let's try with an example - but I'm limited in my knowledge of camera architectures, so please ignore factual incorrectness; this is about the structure and the principle.

Say you want to describe the shutter system. There are a couple of topologies in use that can be grouped along a couple of dimensions:
* Focal plane vs. in-lens (in practice a leaf shutter)
* Direction of shutter travel
* Shutter material (metal blades, cloth)
Each topology implements functionality w.r.t. opening, timing and closing in different manners. These will typically be recognized in the form of (tightly integrated) building blocks within the shutter subsystem. E.g. for a cloth shutter there will be rollers and a tensioning system, for an electronically controlled shutter there may be solenoids and an electronic control system etc.

What I'm thinking of is describing a 'camera' along these functional terms and within these functions, provide an overview of common working principles of the sub-functions. This could be illustrated with concrete examples, but please note that the description itself is at a higher abstraction level; it's not for a specific model, but for a type.

The key underlying this is to be able to distinguish between architectural domains; e.g. the functional vs. the physical domains (and probably/often the electrical domain), and also to be able to abstract from a concrete camera model to the level of an archetype. In this, it helps also to think in terms of dimensions that describe implementation, as these dimensions can be used to build typologies that are potentially (but not always) 'MECE' (mutually exclusive & collectively exhaustive).

It's these kind of encyclopedic overviews that I feel would put a repair person in a position to navigate through any failure in any given camera model and get a reasonable idea of possible causes, even though model-specific documentation is missing.
 
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Thanks for the contributions!

I’m starting with the basic modules for a curriculum for camera technicians.

For this, I’m using my eight-part self-study guide on DIY servicing and repairing electromechanical SLRs. Links in the guides lead to additional topics, such as soldering. The content must then be adapted for each different camera system.

The series has been available on PHOTRIO since mid-May of this year and has received positive feedback so far. It has also passed the critical peer review by the experts here.

I believe the fundamentals of DIY and professional training are the same. Professional work also involves economic, legal, and organizational considerations, which I’ll just note here for the time being.

Why self-study? Training programs for camera technicians are no longer available. Anyone who wants to acquire these skills must do so on their own.



Topics
  1. How do I get started with camera repair?
  2. What knowledge do I need?
  3. What tools are required?
  4. What can I repair myself, and what can't I
  5. Where can I find information on repairing specific cameras?
  6. How do I work with technical documentation?
  7. How do I go about troubleshooting?
  8. Summary
  9. Economic, legal, and organizational considerations


Next steps
  • I’m moving from the overview to the details.
  • First, I’ll examine how these individual modules can be populated using existing information from PHOTRIO and external documents.
  • Then I’ll take a closer look at the input for this thread.
 
Sorry to be the 11th man.

[@lumoStoria ... I'm not really responding to you but using parts of your post as a launching pad to potentially be another 11th man. :smile: ]

The NatCam material is mature and complete but dated. (I have them all and have skimmed the volumes and read in detail the parts I found most useful/interesting.) Those materials are under the control of another person/group/organization via a licensing agreement, I believe, and there is an active group that both promulgates their use and provides guidance on learning camera repair as well as doing camera repair. There are several very well known professional camera repair people participating in that group. Why duplicate those efforts?

Wouldn't it be more useful to extend the existing materials to include new content beyond that of the legacy materials? Both to update for newer approaches (like the bevy of alternative/better lubricants) as well as the topics of seeming interest here - repair of 1980's electronic cameras.

Wouldn't it be more practical and in the better interest of "the community" to forge a partnership/collaboration with the existing repair community to support each other?

I participate in that other community. it is not without it's quirks but when I want advice from truly experienced camera repair professionals that is where I go. Interestingly, that site sees a great diversity of participants, ranging from "just tell me where to squirt napha to fix my problem" to "I've disassembled and don't know what I'm doing because I haven't read a shred of documentation on camera repairs" to "I'm willing to do the homework and do the job right." Those type are not in equal proportion! The least common are anyone interested in going into professional camera repair by following established/validated academic lessons, probably for a lot of different reasons, yet that site and its materials are probably the best available when/if that person shows up... and they are likely to get great support too.

Since there is a lot of philosophizing and dreaming, and the intent of the thread seems to have been adapted to this specific aspect... I simply suggest an alternative approach. Good luck.
 
I don't understand you again.

What don't you understand? You keep saying that but making me guess where my words don't make sense to you. Please clarify so I don't guess incorrectly. You responded so quickly that it seems you didn't really read the post.
 
What don't you understand? You keep saying that but making me guess where my words don't make sense to you. Please clarify so I don't guess incorrectly. You responded so quickly that it seems you didn't really read the post.

First you confuse me with Google Gemini, and then you bring up the fact that this is a thread about dreams that—by whoever—has been steered in that direction.

I don’t know what to make of that. I’m not interested in it either. As always, the only thing that matters to me is the topic itself. I’ll read any meaningful contributions here. The same goes for my own posts.
 
I see @BrianShaw make the sensible suggestion of joining forces with an existing entity that appears to be doing what you also want to do. That's what I take from his post, at least and I think it's something that could be considered.
 
First you confuse me with Google Gemini, and then you bring up the fact that this is a thread about dreams that—by whoever—has been steered in that direction.

I don’t know what to make of that. I’m not interested in it either. As always, the only thing that matters to me is the topic itself. I’ll read any meaningful contributions here. The same goes for my own posts.

Since you want to be public rather than continuing a PM chat... here is the last I'll say and bid you adieu, The plan sounds a bit like a self-licking ice cream cone. Good intent with proposed implementation that isn't very practical.

My earlier comment on Gemini is that AI doesn't give very god advice and citing AI without being perfectly clear about the prompt or sources lacks academic rigor and can lead to incorrect assumptions being promulgated. It's not that AI can't be used meaningfully but it often takes expert judgement to assess the veracity of the results. In the earlier discussion I asked AI your statement, and then swapped two words where the swap made no grammatical difference to meaning... and got two completely different results: one result supported your statement and the other did not. So which is correct?

I'm not making this discussion a personal thing, are you? [Edit: I'm wiling to take a deep breath, a break, and possibly re-engage later in a professional and respectful manner. I hope you will consider the same.]
 
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