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pentaxuser said:
Apparently all 3 of his developers starting with 510Pyro are eco-friendly but his third one for which he wants/needs to get Ilford involved will be grainless and the most eco-friendly developer ever devised
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How can a developer containing Pyro can be ecofriendly?
It is longterm aquatic toxic.

Futhermore it is toxic and likely mutagenic.
 
AgX said:
How can a developer containing Pyro can be ecofriendly?
It is longterm aquatic toxic.

Futhermore it is toxic and likely mutagenic.
Click to expand...

Yes I agree. There would appear to be some good reasons why pyro isn't ecofriendly but I was simply quoting what James Lane said. On video he has never been asked /challenged about his statement or perhaps I should say I have never seen a video in which his statement has ever been discussed

pentaxuser
 
In general advertizing of some photochemicals make me think of manufacturers of sweets adding vitamines and then claiming them to be healthy.

Thus in any case one should look deeper.

But I admit that toxicology and eco-toxicology are difficult matters. Furthermore, I love sweets...
 
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I hope to hear from NorthEastPhotographic about whether he got any details from James Lane about the improved pyro 510

pentaxuser
 
faberryman said:
Is Zone Imaging's formula for its 510-Pyro proprietary? If not, how does it differ from Jay DeFehr's formula for 510-Pyro?
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Some time ago Jay reformulated 510-Pyro by changing the amount of Phenidone used. This is probably the "improved" version that Zone Imaging is selling.
 
AgX said:
How can a developer containing Pyro can be ecofriendly?
It is longterm aquatic toxic.

Futhermore it is toxic and likely mutagenic.
Click to expand...

The third developer, Jay's Ichor, doesn't contain Pyro. It's mostly a PC developer.

Regarding eco-friendliness of Pyro developers, @Jemzyboz argued earlier in this thread that the spent working solution is mostly benign as Pyro would have been oxidised to non-toxic chemical compounds.
 
Even if a oxidized developing agent would be benign, a developer bath is constituted the way that it contains enough developing agent to reduce all silver there is, just in case.
 
AgX said:
Even if a oxidized developing agent would be benign, a developer bath is constituted the way that it contains enough developing agent to reduce all silver there is, just in case.
Click to expand...

Even if the spent working solution is benign, Pyro spills are always a worry. James Lane himself spilled 510-Pyro concentrate on his hand some time ago and apparently was worried about the potential consequences.
 
The third developer, Jay's Ichor, doesn't contain Pyro. It's mostly a PC developer.

So is this the new third developer that James Lane mentions in the video i.e. the one where Ilford's contribution is needed?

Do you know if Ichor is the most eco-friendly developer ever devised and if so did Jay claim this as a fact? It may be that what James has devised is more eco-friendly and truly grainless, assuming this word grainless is a reasonable word with which to describe any developer, - is it?

I wonder how James reconciles his eco-friendly pyro with the concern that you say he expressed about a spillage of it on his hand?

Is this a reasonable thing to do, I wonder?

pentaxuser
 
Ichor is a very fine grain developer by Jay Defehr. Apparently it can be formulated as a highly concentrated syrup like 510-Pyro but doesn't contain any toxic developer agent in it. Jay was himself keen on manufacturing and selling Ichor but faced some issues in international shipping. But he did ship it to some users in USA and the general feedback on the developer has been very positive. Of course there's no systematic comparison of the results with any other developers. Zone Imaging being a manufacturer of Jay's other developer, 510-Pyro, has had the privilege of being one of the early users of Ichor. James claims Ilford got interested in it when he demoed it in one UK photography event apparently because of very fine grain and non-toxicity. Apparently James and Ilford have been talking about it since then.
 
Raghu, thanks for the detailed reply on Ichor and Jay's efforts on its production and delivery but given that your reply is about Jay's product and not James Lane's product I will conclude that the latter's new product is in fact Jay's product and as things stand the difference is allegedly in Ilford's interest in it.

If anyone knows of or gets to know of the differences in James' Pyro or Ichor's compared to those of Jay's please let us know

pentaxuser
 
Are Zone Imaging claiming that they've improved Jay's formulations? I really doubt Jay would be fine with Zone Imaging or anyone tinkering with his formulations be it either 510-Pyro or Ichor. After all, he worked hard on those formulations and arrived at what he thinks gives the results he was looking for.
 
Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Are Zone Imaging claiming that they've improved Jay's formulations? I really doubt Jay would be fine with Zone Imaging or anyone tinkering with his formulations be it either 510-Pyro or Ichor. After all, he worked hard on those formulations and arrived at what he thinks gives the results he was looking for.
Click to expand...

For such issues there is something called patent. So far I do not know of one for Jay Defehr.
 
AgX said:
For such issues there is something called patent. So far I do not know of one for Jay Defehr.
Click to expand...

True. But Zone Imaging sells 510-Pyro under the label "Defehr's 510-Pyro".


1654352162749.png
 
Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Are Zone Imaging claiming that they've improved Jay's formulations? I really doubt Jay would be fine with Zone Imaging or anyone tinkering with his formulations be it either 510-Pyro or Ichor. After all, he worked hard on those formulations and arrived at what he thinks gives the results he was looking for.
Click to expand...

I don't know if Zone Imaging has claimed the 510 Pyro it sells is an improvement on Jay De Fehr's formula. It was NortheastPhotographic which claimed it was an improved version.

NortheastPhotographic said:
I will be distributing Zone Imaging 510-Pyro in the USA. HIs is an improved formula over the original. I have 50 bottles en route to my shop as we speak.
Click to expand...
 
Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
True. But Zone Imaging sells 510-Pyro under the label "Defehr's 510-Pyro".
Click to expand...

But this does not necessarily mean something. If a formula is free anyone may sell it, and even under any name as long this name itself is not protected.
The same for tweaking a free formula a bit

Sometimes even making up a story and attaching names to it may help selling.


 
pentaxuser said:
Has James not released the details to you that you can share?

pentaxuser
Click to expand...

I just come at it from a user of the product, not a chemist. James says it's improved, and it also has different development times from the original. I'll just go with that. I don't know what's in C41 developer, but my charts are in control and that's all I need to know. I do keep some powdered chemicals here for mixing up special paper developers for personal work, so I'm not a total luddite about this stuff...but I'll just leave it to James to describe his product in that level of detail.
 
Thanks for the reply, NorthEast Photographic. All we appear able to conclude is that James says it is improved but in what way we do not know.

It appears that Jay mentions in the link provided by Alan Johnson that the phenidone was increased to 0.37g but he then appears to say "Is this an improvement? " So is he questioning whether his change to 0.37 is an improvement or is he simply saying that this change is a small adjustment. You might need to know Jay's style of speech to know and I do not. John Finch in his video states 0.375g.

So setting the above aside what is James' change? Is it to the phenidone amount or to some other ingredient or both and if so is it the same as John Finch's 0.375?

At the risk of reading between the lines of NorthEast's reply I think he is saying that he sees no need to delve deeper into exactly what has changed or what quality difference this makes as it is a fine developer and as a user this is what counts and that's fine

I just get concerned when anyone wants to use the word improved with no attempt to quantify what that is

pentaxuser
 
AgX said:
But this does not necessarily mean something. If a formula is free anyone may sell it, and even under any name as long this name itself is not protected.
The same for tweaking a free formula a bit

Sometimes even making up a story and attaching names to it may help selling.
Click to expand...

I don't know what is the exact arrangement between Jay and Zone Imaging to let the latter use the name of the former in the 510-Pyro product the latter sells. Jay is a tinkerer par excellence and 510-Pyro is his best known formulation. I would be surprised if Jay would be fine with Zone Imaging tinkering his best known developer and selling it in his name.
 
pentaxuser said:
Thanks for the reply, NorthEast Photographic. All we appear able to conclude is that James says it is improved but in what way we do not know.

It appears that Jay mentions in the link provided by Alan Johnson that the phenidone was increased to 0.37g but he then appears to say "Is this an improvement? " So is he questioning whether his change to 0.37 is an improvement or is he simply saying that this change is a small adjustment. You might need to know Jay's style of speech to know and I do not. John Finch in his video states 0.375g.

So setting the above aside what is James' change? Is it to the phenidone amount or to some other ingredient or both and if so is it the same as John Finch's 0.375?

At the risk of reading between the lines of NorthEast's reply I think he is saying that he sees no need to delve deeper into exactly what has changed or what quality difference this makes as it is a fine developer and as a user this is what counts and that's fine

I just get concerned when anyone wants to use the word improved with no attempt to quantify what that is

pentaxuser
Click to expand...

Just ask him! He will tell you everything you need to know.
 
Does anyone, Raghu in particular, know if Jay ever published his Ichor formula. I have done a Google search and the closest I can get is a site that pertains to be about Jay's developers but no mention is made of anything other than catechol developers and of those only the old version of 510 pyro lists the ingredients

So any help is appreciated

pentaxuser
 
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