ZoneImaging Photochemicals: A new photochemical company

[faberryman]

@faberryman: 510-Pyro has been around for more than a decade. In 2017-18 Jay revised his original formula. I believe Zone Imaging is selling this revised formulation.

Jay has a nice little video showing him mixing up a batch of 510 Pyro on YouTube:

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Jay has a nice little video showing him mixing up a batch of 510 Pyro on YouTube:

In that video the formula he has used is the revised one.

 

[halfaman]

Regarding eco-friendliness of Pyro developers, @Jemzyboz argued earlier in this thread that the spent working solution is mostly benign as Pyro would have been oxidised to non-toxic chemical compounds.

According to what I heard from a person researching for ecological darkroom products and practices, any fully exhausted/oxidized standard MQ developer solution is much less toxic than the active one and could be safely disposed in low quantities through the drain. On the other hand, exhausted fixer is the most important darkroom waste that needs a proper and careful disposal.

 

[AgX]

On the other hand, exhausted fixer is the most important darkroom waste that needs a proper and careful disposal.

This view has not been shared by west-german researchers.
Today even the impact of Silver ions is looked upon again (even diffeently) with new, uncontrolled, sources of silver emissions having emerged.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

According to what I heard from a person researching for ecological darkroom products and practices, any fully exhausted/oxidized standard MQ developer solution is much less toxic than the active one and could be safely disposed in low quantities through the drain.

Pyrogallol is much more toxic than either Metol or Hydroquinone. But considering the fact that most buyers of 510-Pyro are hobbyists and the daily volume of developing is rather low compared to the labs of bygone times, I would be more concerned about the accidental spills of the concentrate than the spent developer.

 

[Alan Johnson]

More commentary:

Zone Imaging 510 Pyro is a New, Highly Efficient Film Developer

A brand new developer.

petapixel.com

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Zone Imaging 510 Pyro is a New, Highly Efficient Film Developer

A brand new developer.

petapixel.com

"Zone Imaging has announced a new film developer called 510 Pyro"

I thought 510-Pyro has been around at least since 2006.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Maybe the first sale of pre-manufactured 0.375g phenidone version.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Maybe the first sale of pre-manufactured 0.375g phenidone version.

Rudiger Hartung did that for some time in Germany.

 

[Lachlan Young]

And the reality is that a well designed PQ developer (or HQMS or Ascorbate) will do the same sort of heightened sharpness thing better, with less risk to the user.

 

[Alan Johnson]

And the reality is that a well designed PQ developer (or HQMS or Ascorbate) will do the same sort of heightened sharpness thing better, with less risk to the user.

Not sure about that, do you have a formula?
In my limited test of the old version of 510 Pyro it did get fine grain, I attributed this to its relatively low pH and IIRC the acutance was quite good but not as good as Pyrocat HD. But I was not keen on cooking hot Pyrogallol and never pursued it.

 

[pentaxuser]

"Zone Imaging has announced a new film developer called 510 Pyro"

I thought 510-Pyro has been around at least since 2006.

Yes and I could find nothing in petapixel's article that provided evidence of there being something special in this new film developer. However on reading James Lane's intro on his vision etc and his 510 Pyro I see no evidence that he is actually claiming in print at least that his 510 Pyro is any different or has something special about it that distinguishes his 510 Pyro from Jay's

Indeed he even calls it Jay deFehr's on the bottle. While NorthEastPhotographic in his #171 says that James says its improved presumably in a direct conversation with NorthEastPhotographic I cannot see where in print James Lane states in writing that it is improved

It may be that this statement comes from second parties and if we choose to read between the lines of what James writes and conclude that it is improved then that's our fault rather than James'

Maybe I missed the word or phrase that clearly indicates in James' writing that it is improved over Jay deFehr's 510. If I have then I'd welcome someone pointing out to me where this is

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

I now have 50 bottles of 100ml of 510 Pyro in stock. They will be $32 each, and I'll list them in the coming days. The bottles include a mixing syringe.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Not sure about that, do you have a formula?
In my limited test of the old version of 510 Pyro it did get fine grain, I attributed this to its relatively low pH and IIRC the acutance was quite good but not as good as Pyrocat HD. But I was not keen on cooking hot Pyrogallol and never pursued it.

How were you judging the granularity - and from what format?

Ilfosol-3 seems to track most closely with what imaging science from the industry would support in terms of making a higher definition developer. It all seems to come down to development inhibition effects, not lack of solvency - and a pH around or fractionally under 10 seems to be optimal.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

James told me that in fact it's the same mix as Jay's 2012 update, which was done for better shadow detail. James told me he also mixes it in a way to theoretically increase shelf life. The bottles I have are marked with a 2028 expiration. That's all I know! Ask James for more info, he will talk your ear off about his products.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Ilfosol-3 seems to track most closely with what imaging science from the industry would support in terms of making a higher definition developer. It all seems to come down to development inhibition effects, not lack of solvency - and a pH around or fractionally under 10 seems to be optimal.

Why do you think Ilford and Kodak never touched pyro?

 

[pentaxuser]

James told me that in fact it's the same mix as Jay's 2012 update, which was done for better shadow detail. James told me he also mixes it in a way to theoretically increase shelf life. The bottles I have are marked with a 2028 expiration. That's all I know! Ask James for more info, he will talk your ear off about his products.

Well what you said in an earlier reply to me was as follows:" I just come at it from a user of the product, not a chemist. James says it's improved, and it also has different development times from the original"

It may be me but that sounds as if it was an improved version of Jay deFehr's version What you didn't say before but now have is that James mixes it in a way to theoretically increase its shelf life

So James in fact makes no claims that it is an improved version of Jay's 2012 update but he does claim that he mixes it in such a way that it theoretically increases shelf life

So James believes that he has found a way of mixing Jay's 2012 510 Pyro that theoretically gives it greater shelf life? Yet he doesn't say this anywhere on his site or if he does can you give me a reference to it ?

I don't have a problem with 510 Pyro or disbelieve what is generally said about its qualities and I recognise that he has taken the trouble to produce an off the shelf developer that many might like but do not have the time or wish to take the trouble to make at home

What I do have a problem with are claims about it that are not substantiated in any way.

The very fact that James is the sole commercial maker of 510 Pyro in the U.K. and I think Europe is to be commended and maybe James as the producer of Jay's 510 Pyro is enough without any need to give 510 Pyro another "edge"

pentaxuser

 

[Lachlan Young]

Why do you think Ilford and Kodak never touched pyro?

Probably because it wasn't much good unless you needed to tan an unhardened matrix emulsion (and even then, Dimezone-S seems to have been being investigated to replace it - at least before basic research in dye transfer ended in the 1960s). Ilford, Kodak and essentially everyone else published plenty of pyro formulae in the Pre-WW2 era - and then seem to have quietly dropped them as basic research became increasingly rigorous. Most of the actual heavy lifting in modern pyro/ 'stain'-forming developers is being done by the other developing agents - the pyro is only there to form a dye of unknown persistence.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

I could find nothing in petapixel's article that provided evidence of there being something special in this new film developer.

@pentaxuser: Looks like Zone Imaging's 510-Pyro is a decade old developer formula by Jay Defehr that's being mixed by Zone Imaging in a way different from how Jay mixes (as demonstrated by him in the video shared earlier by @faberryman):

James told me that in fact it's the same mix as Jay's 2012 update, which was done for better shadow detail. James told me he also mixes it in a way to theoretically increase shelf life. The bottles I have are marked with a 2028 expiration.

So the mixing method is different and possibly new (at least for 510-Pyro) and is what makes Zone Imaging's 510-Pyro a "new" developer and not an "improved" developer! Or maybe the difference between "new" and "improved" is miniscule these days.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Most of the actual heavy lifting in modern pyro/ 'stain'-forming developers is being done by the other developing agents - the pyro is only there to form a dye of unknown persistence.

If this is true then why PC-TEA is not as good as 510-Pyro?

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Maybe the first sale of pre-manufactured 0.375g phenidone version.

This modification that upped Phenidone from 0.25g to 0.375g is a little intriguing because Jay wrote the following about his original 510-Pyro formula:

"After deciding on a 10% solution of pyrogallol in TEA, the first thing I wanted to test for was the ratio of phenidone to pyrogallol. The 21 step wedge and plotter software made this much more precise, though still fairly crude. I settled on a ratio of 0.025g phenidone to 1g pyrogallol because below that ratio film speed dropped, and above it, not much seemed to happen until the ratio approached 1:1, and fog/general stain increased."

Given this, I wonder if Phenidone loses some of its potency in TEA over a period of time and the updated formula is intended to compensate this.

 

[Alan Johnson]

DeFehr's 510-Pyro: Der Entwickler für hohe Schärfe und ultrafeines Korn

Analoge Fotografie

experimentelle-fotografie.blogspot.com

Rudiger Hartung's blog via google translate shows that he did most of the work on the new .375g phenidone version and in the comments it is mentioned that he was in close contact with James Lane.
The increase in phenidone from the original was to give improved shadow definition and faster development times.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

DeFehr's 510-Pyro: Der Entwickler für hohe Schärfe und ultrafeines Korn

Analoge Fotografie

experimentelle-fotografie.blogspot.com

Rudiger Hartung's blog via google translate shows that he did most of the work on the new .375g phenidone version...
The increase in phenidone from the original was to give improved shadow definition and faster development times.

"Jay DeFehr adjusted the composition of the 510-Pyro in 2013 for improved shadow definition and faster development times."

This is what I have noticed others too saying about the updated 510-Pyro formula. But Jay has said only the following about the update when asked if it was an improvement:

"It's a small adjustment to the original formula taking into account the role of ascorbic acid as a developer that pairs with phenidone in much the same way pyrogallol does."

BTW Rudiger Hartung's post presents a comparison of Rodinal and 510-Pyro grain which could be of interest to some:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-M0uNxdrINx0/YJoPe8RkwvI/AAAAAAAAXcU/WiJLMFTWA_893BNZJZYs2u4CJ56zg9AEQCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/Vergleich-Pyro-Rodinal.png

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Looks like there's some competition for Zone Imaging in Europe. He offers a couple of other staining developers too:


p.s. I've no business relationship with either Zone Imaging or this seller from Poland. Posting info here only because it could be of interest to some.

 

[AgX]

Link is dead