ZoneImaging Photochemicals: A new photochemical company

Agulliver · Feb 28, 2022

Lachlan Young said:
What was the nature of this behaviour?

My recollection, which won't be 100% as it was a couple of years ago, is that there were two group admins. One was determined to have friendly discussion of all aspects of photography using film in the UK and by UK residents when travelling abroad...including recommending businesses to buy film and related services from....and the other seemed OK with personal insults, trolls and doing photography "his way" using his personal favourite retailers.

Many people ended up leaving the group for an offshoot set up by the admin was was behaving in a friendly, inclusive manner. He does happen to be a photography shop owner himself but doesn't stand in the way at all of people recommending the services of his competition. I believe the old group changed it's name to "UK film Photography and Darkroom" under the ownership of the chap who had behaved in such a manner that there was a large exodus of members (a certain James)/

However, I do not know what goes on in there as I am not a member any more. It is conceivable that he's cleaned up his game, perhaps sorted out personal problems which he seemed to be going through...and maybe it's a wholesome place again. Lockdowns affected us all adversely and it is possible his errors of judgement were out of character.

but it was certainly a very unpleasant place for a while.

Agulliver · Feb 28, 2022

AgX said:
I think this thread is turning into a kind of witch-hunt.

I believe it is legitimate to ask questions when someone comes here saying they've invented something new and apparently very useful.

When said questions are not answered transparently, it is natural to be sceptical.

When the main defender of the person mentions a group that has been hugely problematical, that again raises red flags.

AgX · Feb 28, 2022

You are right, basically. And it this has been discussed already, and furthermore anyone is free to look at the website of this company and draw conclusions.

I did not see the the connection of the reported trouble at another forum with the allegations here, but now you made your point clear.

Lachlan Young · Feb 28, 2022

Tom Kershaw said:
- yes, it would be an improvement if 'Zone Imaging' and others practised 'evidence based photography'.

That would put the staining developers back into the dustbin of history from which they had dribbled. And the obsession about DTPA etc (from recall) had nothing to do with the environment, but cost and availability to a non B2B buyer.

pentaxuser · Feb 28, 2022

The one product and currently the only product Zone Imaging produces is 510 Pyro as far as I can see and others here can see, based on their comments. What it would appear to have going for it is that, as far as I can see, it is now the only commercial producer of 510 Pyro in the U.K. There are a couple of other stockists but their 510 Pyro comes from Zone Imaging

The price in all cases above is very close to £26 for 100ml So if this 510 Pyro is no better or worse than 510 Pyro was/is, then the other edge it may have is price. However there is no edge as now there are no other stockists to be found so it's a monopoly situation

There once was a rival stockist, called Wet Plate Supplies , who recently decided to shut down. It specialised in mainly raw chemicals but did also make 510 Pyro. However it would seem the market for raw chemicals for photographic use for the few who make their own developers may be just too small to make Wet Plate Supplies sustainable but the website is still there and selling while stocks are still available. FYI its 510 Pyro is no longer available

The regular price for its 510 Pyro was £12 or half what Zone Imaging charges. A 100% difference is shall we say quite large.

So as things stand, Zone Imaging sells one product, 510 Pyro at twice the price of what the Wet Plate Supplies price was.

So it may have aspirations to grow and that's fine but it is still a one product outfit and has a product that is no different from any other 510 Pyro

I'd have thought its rhetoric might have been more closely matched to it current reality

pentaxuser

RalphLambrecht · Feb 28, 2022

AgX said:
The fumes at making, the stickiness of the cubes and their low melting point (I have not done the math on the exact one).

(Furthermore I grew up photographically without knowing about staining developers, in the major german textbook on processes staining development is not even mentioned...)

I just relized that must bewhy I never used them.

faberryman · Feb 28, 2022

For photographers in the United States and Canada, 510 Pyro is available for $16.95 for 100ml through Bostick & Sullivan. It is not a Zone Imaging product. It is prepared by Bostick and Sullivan.

https://www.bostick-sullivan.com/cart/510-pryo-developer-100-ml.html

The also offer PMK Pyro and Pyrocat HD, as well as the raw chemicals if you want to mix your own.

I have no connection to B&S other than as a customer of their platinum/palladium solutions.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Feb 28, 2022

510-Pyro formula is public and is not mostly patented. Do those who manufacture 510-Pyro for commercial purposes like ZI or BS need to pay royalty to the inventor?

DonW · Feb 28, 2022

A friend is testing out their new developer as a beta tester. The results I have seen are outstanding.

Ian Grant · Feb 28, 2022

The major factor in pricing is the cost of the Pyrogallol, I did a quick calculation and buying a reasonable quantity of the chemicals came up with £2.58 per 100ml, lower if I buy Pyrogallol in a larger quanity. It's likely Wet Plate Supplies paid less for their Pyrogallol, as prices have been rising.

Pyrogallol/Pyrogallic acid is a lot cheaper at Bostick & Sullivan, $176.50 a Kg.

Ian

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Feb 28, 2022

Ian Grant said:
The major factor in pricing is the cost of the Pyrogallol, I did a quick calculation and buying a reasonable quantity of the chemicals came up with £5.89 per 100ml and of that £4.60 is for the Pyrogallol. It's likely Wet Plate Supplies paid less for their Pyrogallol, as prices have been rising.

Pyrogallol/Pyrogallic acid is a lot cheaper at Bostick & Sullivan, £176.50 a Kg.

Covid-19 crisis might have affected the price of all photo chemicals. I found that price of Metol has increased by 2 x in India since I bought it last time.

Sirius Glass · Feb 28, 2022

faberryman said:
For photographers in the United States and Canada, 510 Pyro is available for $16.95 for 100ml through Bostick & Sullivan. It is not a Zone Imaging product. It is prepared by Bostick and Sullivan.

https://www.bostick-sullivan.com/cart/510-pryo-developer-100-ml.html

The also offer PMK Pyro and Pyrocat HD, as well as the raw chemicals if you want to mix your own.

I have no connection to B&S other than as a customer of their platinum/palladium solutions.

Also Pyrocat HD with or without Glycol is available from Photographers' Formulary.

Ian Grant · Feb 28, 2022

I'd edited my post Raghu, I can mix 100m for £2.59 excluding a glass bottle. However the Pyrogallol seller's price is half what it will cost to replace again. That's based on what I'd pay for the raw chemicals today.Also I put a pound sigh instead of a $

I have at least 750g of Pyrogallol, and plenty of Phenidone and Ascorbic Acid, so for me it would be cheap to mix a large quantity

Ian

faberryman · Feb 28, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Also Pyrocat HD with or without Glycol is available from Photographers' Formulary.

ArtCraft also has the raw chemicals, including pyrogallic acid.

https://www.artcraftchemicals.com/

pentaxuser · Feb 28, 2022

faberryman said:
I have no connection to B&S other than as a customer of their platinum/palladium solutions.

Jemzyboz has stated that he has no connection to Zone Imaging either except as a customer but I find that hard to reconcile with the evidence Lachlan gave us in #82

pentaxuser

cmacd123 · Feb 28, 2022

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Who prepares MSDS document? Is it the manufacturer or some independent certified chemical laboratory?

the manufacturer is responsible for providing the document, although many will hire a specialist to prepare the files. Also as the receiving country may have different rules for what is required, it may be required to prepare several versions, or add sections to cover off all requirements. I know that the Canadian WHMIS rules have a certain format that he MSDS has to include, although I often see sheets that comply with both the Canadian and US rules. (WHMIS is the set of rules responsible for the Bold dashed bordered information boxes with various symbols and writing in English and French that often appear on packages of Photochemicals

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Mar 1, 2022

Ian Grant said:
I have at least 750g of Pyrogallol, and plenty of Phenidone and Ascorbic Acid, so for me it would be cheap to mix a large quantity

Why not. 510-Pyro does have a cult-like following in UK and Europe and there's probably enough market demand to keep more than one supplier in business if you choose to get into it. Given your knowledge, experience and background you might come up with a Pyro developer that's demonstrably better than other Pyro developers.

Ian Grant · Mar 1, 2022

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Why not. 510-Pyro does have a cult-like following in UK and Europe and there's probably enough market demand to keep more than one supplier in business if you choose to get into it. Given your knowledge, experience and background you might come up with a Pyro developer that's demonstrably better than other Pyro developers.

Yes, why not It turns out I have far more Pyrogallol than I thought may be 1.5 kg. I may start selling 510 Pyro £10 per 100ml

Ian

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Mar 1, 2022

Ian Grant said:
Yes, why not It turns out I have far more Pyrogallol than I thought may be 1.5 kg. I may start selling 510 Pyro £10 per 100ml

Very reasonable price indeed - £1 per liter of working solution at the standard dilution of 1:100. Looks attractive compared to even Adox XT-3 1 liter pack which is priced at 5.99 EUR.

pentaxuser · Mar 1, 2022

Ian Grant said:
Yes, why not It turns out I have far more Pyrogallol than I thought may be 1.5 kg. I may start selling 510 Pyro £10 per 100ml

Ian

Sounds good to me, Ian

pentaxuser

Agulliver · Mar 2, 2022

Ive got an old 500g jar of pyrogallol in my lab chemical store....by the looks of the label it's vintage, likely late 1960s. Do you think I could sell it on Etsy?

What's a good formula for pyrocat? I've got glycol coming out the wazoo too.

Tom Kershaw · Mar 2, 2022

Agulliver said:
What's a good formula for pyrocat?

When I made up Pyrocat-HD I just used distilled water. Ian's site has the formula: http://lostlabours.co.uk/photography/formulae/developers/devPC_hd.htm

mohmad khatab · Mar 2, 2022

Congratulations to all, and I wish good and blessings to all.
I spoke with that young James Lane; on Messenger. And they seem ambitious.
I wish him success and luck.
- I am also on my way to establish such a similar company in Egypt.
I obtained commercial licenses and registered the company, but I am still waiting for approval from the Ministry of Environmental Affairs.
It takes a lot of time to present a lot of harmony and hold a lot of listening and discussion sessions with the rabbis of the Ministry of Environmental Affairs.
In fact, it is very complicated and requires more effort and time.

- Yes, I will focus on selling the concentrates only. I will use only glass bottles, not plastic, in order to ensure that they will live for a long period of time and will not be disposed of because they have become expired.
I wish good luck to everybody
My greetings

mohmad khatab · Mar 2, 2022

Tom Kershaw said:
To quote, 'This further progressed to experimenting to make his own black and white developers after sparking a friendship with Jay DeFehr, the most celebrated photo-chemist of the 21st century' - citation? This kind of marketing hyperbole instantly puts me off the company.

Another quote: “The only problem with 510 Pyro is after you’ve used it regularly for a while and then go back to traditional chemistry, the results from it are different. It’s almost like 510 Pyro produces 4K pictures to the 720p of traditional stuff.” - this makes no sense, where is the comparison, process, methodology? - How about Pyrocat-HD?

I agree with you to some extent,
This kind of exaggeration and unwarranted praise is somewhat unacceptable.
At the same time, I spoke with Mr. Jay DeFehr, and he was very kind, never arrogant, and never stingy of any information on anyone.
I don't think he would be comfortable reading this description and over-praise.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Mar 2, 2022

mohmad khatab said:
- I am also on my way to establish such a similar company in Egypt.
I obtained commercial licenses and registered the company, but I am still waiting for approval from the Ministry of Environmental Affairs.

Nice! Best wishes to you.

ZoneImaging Photochemicals: A new photochemical company

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